Getting Creamed!

[Daniel M.]

Dear All,

I've been practicing with a colleague whose training is as a boxer. He's about 6'3" and weighs 235lbs. His outstretched arm is about 4 inches longer than mine. I'm about 160lbs and 5'8"...

So far we've done 2 minute rounds at speed with light contact to the torso and no contact (but honesty) to the head. We've also gone slower for longer periods and have tried 3 minute rounds.

We play mostly on boxing terms, i.e. I don't kick.

Barring 'cheating' and kicking from far away, I'm getting creamed (happily). I can't seem to get around his jab or return anything. I spend all my time keeping his fist away from me and dancing away from the opposite hand as it comes in. I closed once or twice and discovered the hard way that a short hook to the torso from a large trained man is very hard to absorb spontaneously.

Things that have worked for me are using CMA ideas (and RMAX) to ride, roll around, nodal-rotate around his jab/hook once I've made contact. While I have managed to make contact with his torso a few times by doing this, I usually eat his opposite fist as I follow the jab back in.

I cannot seem to disturb his balance sufficiently to try CMA takedowns or joint-locks. I felt that I had absolutely no power in my punches due to his mass and shock absorption ability, but he seemed to feel I hit pretty hard for a guy of 160. Perhaps he was being nice. I also am thankful for my CMA forearm conditioning - my right arm was fine after our sessions, while his left jabbing arm has been very bruised.

From this brief description, could any of you more experienced fighters/players out there suggest how I proceed - I really like this practice and my partner is a great guy, so I think this will be a long term project.

Thanks

Daniel

[Scott Sonnon]

Daniel,

The Performance Diagnostic Trinity suggests that if it's not a competition (mental toughness & emotional control) issue and it's not a training (conditioning) issue, then it's your practice (skills) which lack.

If you've restricted yourself to boxing, have you taken any boxing lessons or are you still attempting to employ methods 'inside the box' which are designed for more broader contexts? If you haven't taken any boxing lessons and you're still attempting to use CMA in a boxing context, of course you're getting creamed.

[Daniel M.]

Dear Coach,

Thanks for the clarity.

I think this is the death of my remaining illusions about 'general purposes' methods! Your diagnosis is bang on. What do you think of the idea of me using my training with this partner to adapt my current repertoire to his skills and the demands these place on me? He's certainly very willing to accept that we work in more than one way. I'm more interested in working on 'little me vs. big him' than in CMA vs. boxing.

Neverthelss, I'm also a bit curious to go and take some boxing lessons short term. However, I'm in a new town where I don't know anyone except Ryan and my time is limited. I'm hoping to work on 'hard work' material with Ryan Murdock once things stabilize here. I'm concerned that adding boxing to an already full movement training palette may be cocktailing and that this will out weigh any benefit that the hard work brings. What do you think? My overall goal is to put myself in incrementally more 'hardwork' situations in order to better understand free fighting, as opposed to set drills and push-hands. But I don't want to show up to lecture with black eyes or get into excessively egoist, macho competitions...

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Daniel

[Scott Sonnon]

Daniel,

It sounds to me that you have some priorities to decide and then act upon: you provide several reasons to do and to not do several different options. "Stand in the middle? Crush like grape."

[Ryan Murdock]

Coach Sonnon wrote:

The Performance Diagnostic Trinity suggests that if it's not a competition (mental toughness & emotional control) issue and it's not a training (conditioning) issue, then it's your practice (skills) which lack.


Daniel, I'd suggest, after our one training session back in winter in Montreal, that Competition is a gaping hole in your training background. I got the sense that your CMA training included little to no work with a resisting opponent. From the above it seems unlikely that you'd be able to schedule in some Skills work with boxing to more fully explore your current practice. Perhaps, as an alternative solution, you could change the format of that current work to enable you to explore Competition in a setting where your different skill sets are not a decisive factor? (by that I mean, if exploring in a boxing setting, clearly your partner has tremendous advantages - perhaps you could change the drill to remove that advantage).

As Coach Sonnon wrote, you can't do it all, at least not in one cycle. Time to sit down and prioritize your goals, and shape your personal practice to work towards those goals.

Hope that's helpful.
Ryan

[jphaas]

Daniel,

Instead of trying to follow his jab in and eating the cross punch off his opposite hand, maybe move to the outside of the jab and then move into the space created by his cross as he turns to throw it. There's always space. :)

Also, are you intending to try and box with him, or are you attempting to use the principles of RMAX Combatives in the context of your sparring? If you don't have equivilent boxing experience, I would think it's a mistake to try and spar him at his own game. :)

Hope this is helpful.

Jon

[Daniel M.]

Thanks everyone.

My diagnosis from your comments:

I'm getting creamed due to:
1. lack of skill mesh (I'm playing his game, he's better at it than I, it may be a better game overall)
2. lack of habituation (I'm not used to sparring)

My needs:
1. I need to practice with a resisting opponent in order to learn how to use my pre-owned repertoire more effectively

My pre-owned repertoire:
2. CMA movements, some RMAX learned through video courses

My limitations and context:
1. I have a partner who is happy to work with me in a way I find challenging and stimulating.
2. I don't really have the time to pick up any more movement sets (other than my work with RMAX material) so studying boxing is out.

Difficulties in light of your excellent points:

Coach Sonnon: do you think its a waste of time for me to try to adapt my current skills to those of my opponent? This will at least allow me to continue to practice against the much needed resistance, even if it places me short to mid-term at a serious technical disadvantage.

Ryan: I can only meet with my partner 2 times a week and your schedule is pretty hectic too. How do I tailor my DPP towards competition when I'm training by myself most of the time?

Jon: I'm working on outflanking that jab - success rate is 1 out of 4 right now! Ouch...

Many many thanks all for taking the time.

Daniel

Daniel,
There is loads you can do, and thinking out of the box, as Coach Sonnon suggested is one of them.

I have a student who is a good 4 or 5 inches taller than me, and has a crushing probe/jab, so i have an idea of what you are experiencing.

Remember, you can strike your opponents guard to allow you to come inside, if he is a lot more taller than you then it is likely you may actually find his close in boxing more restricted than yours, so if you can move in close you may find in fighting will balance the situation.

There is a variety of ways to get inside, utilise some soft work methodology, and practice slipping inside, bobbing and weaving etc, but train it instinctively, and it does sound as though you have a partner you can work with, so slow down the time framing to train this.

You can strike his guard, and continue through with a barrage of hits, you can work feints and draw him inside, you can utilise shock ability, inoculation and engineering, to make him neuro-muscularly blind.

Examine your own fear reactivity, especially if taking shots to the head. Are you using mma style gloves or boxing gloves, as each determine your ability to utilise fingers for pulls and grabs, remember also conditioning plays a part, can you out pace him, make him work hard and then capitalise on superior conditioning?

If you are not used to sparring then work it progressively, i.e. jab only, cross only, rear hand only. Are you boxing south paw, if not take advantage of this, don’t become rigid in one position, move in accordance to the terrain.

Overall, find and examine yourself, and one big tip, weaponise your architecture, you can strike with wrists, fists, forearms, elbows, elbow bits, shoulders etc. If you don’t have fisticuffs, invest in it.

Andrew.

[AnthonyThompson]

Excelent advice as always andrew

would that the Ian,s Jab youre talking about

Having traing under Andrew and with Ian I can add that he has arm like an orangutan and sledge hammers for fists to boot :lol:

Anthony

[natem1968]

Daniel,
Something you could try, would be using your elbows as a defenesive tool, In the form of a passive weapon.

Let him jab/punch your elbow point.

Do some solo drills where you transition from a gaurd to a passive weaponised elbow.

For example, you could practise bringing your elbow up to your chin area vertically as well as circularly.

This is just an example, find your own ways of doing it whilst being creative and staying in motion, both globaly(whole body) and localy(elbows). Try to do it without stopping moving , for at least 5 minutes a day.


Regards


Nate

[natem1968]

Daniel,
Something you could try, would be using your elbows as a defensive tool, In the form of a passive weapon.

Let him jab/punch your elbow point.

Do some solo drills where you transition from a gaurd to a passive weaponised elbow.

For example, you could practise bringing your elbow up to your chin area vertically as well as circularly.

This is just an example, find your own ways of doing it whilst being creative and staying in motion, both globaly(whole body) and localy(elbows). Try to do it without stopping moving , for at least 5 minutes a day.


Regards


Nate

[Coach Billew]

I love the collective wisdom of the tribe!

One other thought. It sounds to me like you are in the mindset of trading blows, but as we know from Softwork what is actually happening is an conversation of density.

If your partner is willing, you might try working slowly, and focus on disrupting your partners integration rather than trying to apply specific weapons or specific defenses. If you slow down enough you should be able to improvise around the strategy of disrupting his integration. I have frequently found that the times I struggle the most in Hardwork is when I am trying to apply a specific movement rather than allowing myself to be responsive to the situation.

I hope that helps.

[Ryan Murdock]

Daniel,

Sorry about the delay getting back to this. Some great posts since I was here last!!

Some random responses to your last post above, based on what you wrote, on some of our conversations, and on my assessment from our one mat meeting.


I'm getting creamed due to:
1. lack of skill mesh (I'm playing his game, he's better at it than I, it may be a better game overall)
2. lack of habituation (I'm not used to sparring)

More or less. For 1), take the emphasis away from "boxing" and simply examine different relationships,... It will be really helpful to you because his background and movement base is so different from yours. For 2), I wouldn't describe it as lack of habituation. I'd say almost total lack of training against a resisting opponent. Don't compartmentalize it into "sparring", think of it as moving against resistance. Semantics, maybe. But the term "sparring" often connotes a win-lose game under particular rules... Explore movement, but with gradually increasing resistance. I noted above that you said light to no contact, with no contact to the head at all. I'd advise you to slow it down and include contact to the head - as I showed you with that Rocky Drill progression... This will take your shock absorption fluid and make it useable. Slowly slide up from Softwork towards Hardwork. Also, in your past training you told me that you did a lot of combination striking but in the air in front of your opponent, never actually hitting. Under stress, you'll do exactly that - you'll miss. These drills will teach you to strike to disrupt structure.


My needs:
1. I need to practice with a resisting opponent in order to learn how to use my pre-owned repertoire more effectively
My pre-owned repertoire:
2. CMA movements, some RMAX learned through video courses

No. Go beyond your "pre-owned repetoire." Find the "you" beneath all that and explore this. Sure, after all these years some of it will look like CMA. That's fine. If it comes out in the mix like that, you own it already, you've made it yours and it works for you. All of the RMAX resources show you how to go beyond TMA and straight to mastery. But you'll never access that unless you drop the TMA and simply explore your own innate mastery. Sure, you can renovate that TMA, but you'll never go deeper. Rote technique is a blinder that's obscuring "you."

In partner training, Slade hit it dead on with his advice about Softwork exploration. It seems that your friend is open to exploring new things. Rather than jump in to full speed sparring, approach this incrementally. Craft drills up the Static, Fluid and Dynamic progression, and allow your fluid and dynamic work to slide naturally up the Softwork to Hardwork continuum. When you reach sticking points (like fear-reactivity to the head, for example), immediately craft drills to address those issues. We talked about all this stuff when I was on the mats with you last winter. For a reminder, see my article on response-based striking http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/29/murdock.html That's the basic idea, but get creative about it. It seems that too much is happening at once and you're getting overwhelmed. Jumping from no experience to full-on sparring is asking to be overwhelmed. Would you take a new driver to Bangkok rush hour and toss them the keys? Even if they survived, I doubt they would have learned much. Take it apart, and work the challenging bits through a Static, Fluid, Dynamic progression - and go fluid as soon as possible. You've done static to death for years. This is a great opportunity to explore the Competitive side of the PDT.


Ryan: I can only meet with my partner 2 times a week and your schedule is pretty hectic too. How do I tailor my DPP towards competition when I'm training by myself most of the time?

I meet with my training partner once a week for two hours, and each time we get on the mats I'm better, I've improved in some way. It's all personal practice. That's where the work is done. Partner training is the lab.

Andrew's advice to weaponize your architecture is dead on. Really explore this in your personal practice, and go deep. Don't be satisfied with simply imitating the movements.

Go beyond rote technique. It falls apart under pressure, as you've seen. In your personal practice you need to work on what you find challenging, frustrating,... In your training logs you're spending an awful lot of time repeating CMA forms and rote kata. You've done this for years and years, you know it already. What do you hope to gain from this? How does stance work and static locomotion drills carry over to a fluid situation? I understand the desire to "maintain skills", but it isn't possible to maintain everything you've ever learned, all the time. Anyway, none of it matters. You can't lose it. What matters is what you've made your own.

I would suggest to you that if you really want to delve deeply into your own mastery you need to drop rote technique repetition. I can't see how its possible to go beyond the old-paradigm of TMA while still cluttering your personal practice with TMA. I would suggest an experiment: totally drop all that stuff for several months and delve deeply into RMAX, then re-evaluate.

What do you find most challenging? Work with the more personally challenging body flow exercises. Weaponize your architecture and focus on flow and improvisation. Tailor your strength training work in this same way. You told me that you have excellent lower body strength from decades of stance work, but that you lack upper body strength. Focus your clubbell work here. You'll be amazed how quickly you see results, and it will cross over to your practice with the boxer immediately.

In summary, what we're talking about here goes beyond a few "tricks" to get the best of your boxer friend. We're talking about a total paradigm shift to the way you approach (and see) training.

Hope this is helpful.

Ryan

[Ryan Murdock]

Double post

[Ryan Murdock]

Daniel,

A small clarification, in case it didn't come through clearly in what I wrote above.

I see two possible courses here:

1) The pursuit of your own innate, unique mastery
2) renovation of your CMA training, which would involve exploring the Softwork to Hardwork continuum within your CMA.

Obviously I'm strongly in favour of 1, the deeper path.

For 2, you should find a partner who does the same CMA as you and explore Static, Fluid and Dynamic, and the Softwork-Hardwork continuum, within that (including Competition - based on drills that you'd invent).

And I feel that everything I wrote, here and above, applies to TMA as a whole.

Cheers,
Ryan

[Daniel M.]

Dear all,

Thanks for your helpful and plentiful responses. Nice to feel so supported!

Ryan:

Thanks especially for the tough love! To address some of what you said, I've been using my TMA stance and stepping drills to rehab my Achilles injury. The left leg is atrophied and I have a bit of an up-slip in my right hip from the additional load it bore during my convalescence. I chose the TMA drills because of their familiarity to me. As the ankle is still fragile, I feel that control and predictability are important at this time.

That said, you are quite right. Its a big mental leap to change training and practice that much. I really hope that we are together in the same town for long enough so that we can work together on the ideas you propose. I'm also confident that the Softwork/Bodyflow seminar will be a big boost.

Finally, with respect to my friend the boxer, I'm going to see how far I can get with introducing incremental elements into our work together. He's a great guy and I'm confident I can propose things to him that may seem a bit unusual.

I'll keep everyone posted and let you know how things go.

Best,

Daniel

[Jay76]

Stand in the middle? Crush like grape."

Karate Kid..Love that movie. Funny, it was just on TV a couple of days ago :shock: :D