Teaching a fall

[DaveRandolph]

I have an MA student approx. 16 yrs. old. Tall, lanky uncoordinated. I need to teach him to do a simple judo type breakfall so he wont get hurt practising certain escapes from a hold (he is the attacker and gets thrown). He landed hard a couple of times doing simple rolls from a squat and fear-reactivity set in immediately.

Before even attempting the breakfall I started by having him begin in a ball of foot squat to do a shoulder roll. He kept flopping and banging and now doesnt want to try at all. I've tried everything to get him to keep practicing. I told him to go home and put a mattress on the floor and fall on it. That was Monday on Wed he didnt make class.

I kept telling him to exhale and stay loose when he rolled, to tuck the chin under etc. and make each part of the body come in contact with the ground to form a continuous connection with the body to the floor to no avail..

My next try with hm will be an arm thread shoulder roll and if he can do that, then a long arm roll.

Any suggestions as to how to get him to relax into this.

Any help will be greatly appreciated

Thanks

Dave Randolph

[DaveRandolph]

Posted in the wrong place. thanks for moving it

Dave

Dave ,

First welcome back. The tribe continues to get stronger as it grows.

I might try to start with a long arm roll reverse. There's really no "fall" which seems to be freaking the kid out. Eventually he can "reverse the reverse" and go foward then go into a chain including standing to ground engagement - this is kind of how I like to warmup.

Bill

[Coach Billew]

A couple of thoughts.

First since he seems to be uncomfortable with the actual rolling part I would start him off with some spinal rocks. They get the body engaging the ground in the way you want, but are not very threatening or pain inducing. One thing I usually say to people when I coach ground engagement is "Round things roll, Square things don't" its silly, but it gets people laughing a little and helps them remember to tuck themselves up.

Second if you are trying to teach a specific ground engagement remember to break it down into elementary motor components. Have the athlete repeat each component in isolation a few times(maybe 10?) before trying to sew it together into the roll that you want. The flat foot squat can be uncomfortable for people and may not be the best place to start someone who is already having problems. Try having him start in a kneeling position.

One last thought, what is his motivation for learning this? Is it clear to him? Is he doing this because he wants to or because you want him to? I understand that ground engagement is important to martial arts and that everybody needs to know it, but has he been shown the efficacy of this practice. As martial artists we are often quick to assume that the reasons we do things are obvious, but we need to be aware that the reality is often different.

Just my two cents.
I hope this helps.

[DaveRandolph]

Bill Its good to be back. Thanks...

The reason he needs to learn this skill is becuase in the particular scenario we are working on. He is the attacker, the "victim" will be pulling him off balance across the side of the upper leg and lower leg. Not a hip throw.

The attacker has the victim from behind with the victim's neck in the crook of the attackers arm.

The initial movement of the victim is a strong pull on the attackers arm pulling him off balance by stepping to the side away from the elbow, therefore straightening it. The victim then uses his other hand to pull the attacker down which results in the attacker landing on the ground on his back. The attacker's body is being uprooted and rotated about the shoulder of the arm being straightend.

Hope this makes sense

All you grapplers dont laugh to hard :)

We are a stand-up fighting style. This is one of several basic self-defence scenarios we teach. We teach them to show principles/concepts rather than rote memorization of technique.


Thanks for your suggestions I'll work on them with him on Monday.

Dave Randolph

[Coach Billew]

Dave,

Another thought based on your description.

It seems to me that you don't need to teach him to roll. You have a drill set up that can teach the breakfall that you want. I would suggest that you explain to him that the self defense drill teaches principles and concepts to both the attacker and the defender. The defender is learning concepts for dealing with a choking type attack and the attacker is learning ways to safely engage the ground.

You could then play the defender role in the scenario with him in the attacker role. Go through the scenario several times. Go slow, and be ready to help him slow down his fall. The first time let him land anyway that makes sense to him. Then help him critique the way he landed. Ask him questions that help him see the effectiveness of the way that you want him to fall. Keep at this for a while until he is falling safely and you are able to gradually increase the speed. After that you might help him create a solo drill to practice the fall on his own.

I know this is kind of reverse engineering, but since he is already afraid of falling on his own getting his mind off that by putting it straight into the scenario might help relieve some of his fear-reactivity. Not to mention the shame he no doubt feels after failing the previous time.

I hope this helps.
Good luck.

[Rufus]

Dave, to further what Bill said, doing rolls in reverse is very useful. I've seen it work for myself, Ana, and a ROSS newbie at our training sessions.

Rufus

[S Ward]

Dave,

Having been involved with a throwing art for several years now I have found that teaching falling skills to be very difficult. I was taught the old fashoned way - you get thrown enough you learn to fall. Unfortunately not to many people stick around for this kind of training. At my current training center they take a very incremental approach with great success. We start the beginner student on all fours and have them reach one arm between their legs as far as they can. This causes their head, neck and shoulder to rotate underneath their body and if they keep reaching they will automatically roll (like method 1 roll). When they can do this smoothly we move to a squat and then to standing. Even still with some students rolling just takes along time - it took my better half two years to become comfortable with standing rolls and breakfalls.

On another note I've found that the throw you describe can provoke a lot of fear. The person being thrown experiences a sudden level change (head rushing toward ground), their legs are trapped so they cannot step to lower themselves to a comfortable height, and the arm they would use to slow themselves down is being prevented from doing its job. I guess what I'm saying is that some people will take along time to get comfortable with this situation. Time, patience, and gentle guidance.

Stephen

[DaveRandolph]

I will take all of your advice and see what works out the best for him.

I appreciate the great feedback :!:

Dave

[J.H. Myers Jr.]

Hi Dave:

Consider telling him that he is not so much falling as "receiving the ground" this is not doubletalk or feel good, it's a fact of mentality. A fall is a bad thing, receiving is always positive and always has a conotation of control. It removes the "I'm the victim" mindset from beginners. But, eh, they still call it falling.

Drill One:

Have him get on hands and knees. You squat or kneel down perpendicular to him. Reach under him and grab the far wrist and gi pants of the far knee. Get a really good grip.

Now, all at once (very fast) yank on wrist and handful of gi. He will naturally flip/spin in your hands. As he impacts he should slap a nice jap style break fall. This never fails to teach em how to get that slap down.

Drill Two:

Squat down on haunches, cross arms, roll onto back and slap the mat. This simple drill imparts timing over time. Be sure his chin is tucked in tightly, of course.

Drill Three:

Squats on haunches again. kick one leg across the body and fall on that side for a side break fall. Slap and Kiai. head tucked.

On drill one and two, he should move to standing or squatting higher as the days or weeks go by.

Learning the ROSS decompression methods for back and side falls did more in a month than ten years of trial and error. To describe it here is just too damn hard. If it's in a video you own by RMAX, add it as a compliment to his regular asian style receiving training.

Jack.

[rbibbs]

My fourth attempt to formulate this concisely. It's the topic of a whole shelf full of texts. There are procedural suggestions in the other replies about coaching falls; I have zero authority on that.

As coaches for teens, the value we impart to their present and future lives is not in falling or striking or armbarring; those are tools but they are not the end-product. With very few exceptions, our students will not end up in the UFC.

As adults, we grossly underestimate the pressure and dynamics of being 14-17 years old. If we as adults, with our now-presumed level of comfort and familiarity with who we are and who everybody else is, were suddenly subjected to this pressure, most of us would shatter. Kids only survive it because they are as flexible as they are. The pressure sculpts some, and distorts some. As coaches, we have been offered an influential role in what course this pressure takes.

A 16yo boy who is lanky and uncoordinated has already been exposed to enough cultural images to know that these are not characteristics to which one aspires. Internally, he's asking himself "is this who I am, or can I discover something more, like my athletic friends seem to have?" That's the most likely route by which he arrived at martial arts school.

The second most likely is a lot darker scenario, because if it was his parents' idea, that's sent him a message "we're not satisfied with who you are" at a time when he probably isn't satisfied either, a very negative reinforcement.

OK he's lanky. Edges, corners, bones sticking out everywhere. Yeah? So am I. Not a lot of meat or padding on them, not a lot of underlying structure supporting them. Not physically "frail", just not built for banging into solid objects "right out of the box". I'm 40 years older than he is, not under a lot of expectational pressure athletically, internally or externally (peers). And guess what? I have a very hard time with breakfalls too. I either try to stay standing, or try to stay on the ground.

I've worked some breakfalls. But I have enough caution with my own (uninsured) structural integrity, and enough nerve to insist to whoever is teaching me, that for the forseeable future, THEY control my falls at framing speed. The times my BJJ instructor wants to drill takedowns at full speed and power, I politely decline participation. It's enlightened self-interest, it's more risk than I'm willing to take for the sake of a drill, and I am old enough to not give a fork if someone thinks I'm a wuss for not wanting my shoulders separated. Period.

That decision is nowhere NEAR as clear-cut for a 16yo. He DOES take it as a reflection on who he is. He doesn't have the surety of identity to dictate how it's taught. He IS under internal and external pressure to succeed athletically. Now, is it any wonder he didn't show up Wednesday? Under the circumstances, I wouldn't have either, and not because of anything you did or didn't do, but just because of who I am.

Not being critical of what you're doing Dave. My point in scripting this is, that with teens, coaches are given an awesome opportunity. We must think outside our own adult pathways, for our own growth, and for that of our students. React appropriately to their accomplishments and their fears, with deference and empathy for their perspective. Live through it WITH them. It's a rich experience for student and teacher.

Rick

[DaveRandolph]

Thanks for the reply. But first off there are some other dynamics at work here that I didnt mention. The worst being that he is it with his mother. His brother started with him then went off to college, so Mom decided she'd try it and she makes it VERY difficult for me to work with her baby...He is embarrassed by it and I am splitting them up next class.

2nd is that he didnt come Wed becuase of homework, at least that is what his mother said.

3rd. We dont spend a lot of time on this aspect of our training, we do primarily forms work (lets not debate that please). I just want him to know the rudiments of falling not the complete falling methods of Judo.


Thanks Again for everyone's insight

Dave

[rbibbs]

I'm (emphatically) not criticizing what you're doing or how you're doing it Dave. I have the highest admiration for your ability and dedication. And talk about external dynamics, that one's a whopper, we have a kid like that 4 houses up from me.

My perspective is, were I in this kid's place at his age, even "without" his mother involved, you (or any other instructor) would be having a problem with me too. And like you are, you'd do everything in your arsenal to get him/me past that.

I'm by no means singling-out this situation. I'm taking the example in this thread to broadly and philosophically reach the community of coaches and their students who may at some time find themselves in a related circumstance.

I'm reminding us, and myself, of the value of flexibly applying our principles based upon a broad understanding of the parameters, including "what's going on inside the other guy's head".

Rick

[bob_stra]

Might the following may give you some useful ideas?

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/csa/vol31/table.htm

Specifically

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/csa/vol31/backprog.htm
http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/csa/vol31/sherman.htm

[Scott Sonnon]

Excellent resource, Bob.

[dave_rusin]

Dave,
Really great suggestions here and I concur with all the comrades who have posted. I would only add to the great advice you already have that you might consider having him close his eyes while going thru the drills to increase his comfort with this. With eyes closed he will be focused on the proprioceptive experience of the drill and not the emotional components (fear-inducing) that arise out of visual stimulus. Of course, the slower it is done at first the better and as was pointed out before, as defender helping him drastically slow down the fall will be important at first... IMHO...

Best of luck, Dave!