using rmax to enhance your ukeimi falling and breakfalling

[ninjaboy]

A lot of "traditional" martial arts teach that when you go to the ground or fall trip or are thrown that you slap the mat or the ground. So I have been bouncing around the idea of tensegrity and shock ability and things started to come out in a more clear light.

If you look at a break fall like bouncing the tensegrity ball. Then the actual act of where and how you slap should put your structure in a safe position where your bones won't suffer impact damage and your muscles and tendons can absorb and disperse shock. The actuall action of your hand hand or leg hitting the mat or ground is just the final dispersion of the shock out of your body.

When rolling the concept is the some what same. The difference is the the the tensegrity ball is now in motion so it can disperse the force over a mltiple facets of the ball in motion. Which make the initial impact less tramatic and more easy to disperse.

If you don't know what tensegrity is yet check out integrating structure.

[Charlie]

Arm slapping can be a controversial discussion. We do usually do it in Judo ukemi , for various reasons:

- it helps you orientate yourself in space; as you're being whirled through the air it helps you find where the ground is, so you know better how you're falling and how to adapt to it.

- it gives you something safe to do with your arm (rather than having it get squished awkwardly under your body, or indulging in the wrist-snapping habit most people have of propping-back in a futile attempt to 'save' yourself with the arm)

- it really seems to help dissipate the impact shock, so falls just don't hurt or discomfort as much

However in contest, experienced players don't try to slap the mats much at all, as it often causes the ref to award a higher score. And there are some who don't teach slapping or traditional ukemi at all (eg. Porter, Lafon), and prefer to work on 'turn-outs' instead, where you land more like a cat, on the front of your body.

In Shiai Jiao (a chinese thowing art) they don't slap, but prefer to go to the ground on their side, with the arm curled up protectively under the head, cushioning it against impact. I've tried this a bit, and it feels very rough, and clumsy, to me but that could well just be my unfamiliarity with the method. They feel its a safer habit for the reality of taking a fall on rock/concrete ('protect the head' at all costs), and that armslapping is an artifact of mat-practice.

I don't know if its taught in Sambo, ROSS, or Rmax ground-engagements, can anyone comment?

[Coach Billew]

When I studied traditional martial arts. (ninjutsu) my instructor always emphasized that slapping the mat was a tool for beginners to help keep them oriented and keep there body in a safer position once they were on the ground. Eventually as your ukemi improved you stopped doing it.

I would have to question the idea that slapping is integrating your structure. From my experience in RMAX we emphasize the use of collapsing architecture to slow you down as you engage the ground. This is much more similar to the tensegrity concept than slapping the ground is.

Also if you train at all for applications off the mat, I really wouldn't recommend slapping the concrete. Or as Scott used to say go out to the parking lot hold your breath, tense all your muscles and slap the ground, as you fall and you'll learn not to do that again. (Please don't actually do it!)

[mtan2]

I'm not as experienced or skillful as many of my fellows on the forum, but I thought I would chime in with my 2 cents, since I've been working with Coach Sonnon's materials since the old days of GTB. I did a good bit of work with the ground engagement material. However, I recently (3-4 months ago) started judo. I find that I usually break my fall by slapping the mat. I'm not sure whether this was because I still have to unlearn this "technique" or whether this inherently happens because of the mechanics of being cleanly thrown.
Now if I may briefly diverge on a tangent... I do find my ground engagement work directly and immediately beneficial in other venues. The most recent example being my first experiece ice skating about a month ago. It's nice having no fear of taking a spill :wink:
Hopefully others with more skill and experience than me can provide some input.
Train hard, have fun.

[Elijah]

Interesting subject,

I started my MA career taught to slap the ground in breakfalls. The idea being to dissapate the impact throughout the body. 'Further down the path' I was taught that slapping the ground was a bad habbit to develop. Reasons included the cumulative damage to the arms - especially when hitting hard surfaces such as cement, wood, concrete etc.
If in a street situation you strike the ground on impact and you hit broken glass or something sharp you will have to contend with the injured limb as well as your opponent. Also, for 'stealth' appllications we always tried to engage the ground as silently as possible - a hard 'slap' would be counter productive in this regard.

My training today includes engaging the ground as 'softly' as possible while still remaining mobile - the slap doesn't help with this. The only time I find myself slap the ground is when my partner has thrown me with a little 'juice' and we are on matts - I guess my body now knows that it is safe to do - in that instance.

[Chuck Kechter]

Throwing my 2 cents in...

I think how tense/dense you are is going to have a big contribution to how you fall...

If you're in an "oh sh*t" moment and your density is high you're more likely to fall like a statue carved out of a single piece of rock...

This is something that came out at the inaugural Softwork seminar...

Most people when they fall, fall like they're made out of a solid plank...

Whereas you are an articulated being, and "should" fall like a rag doll...

Scenario will always dictate -- which is why progressively exposing yourself to differing scenarios (where you have fear there's density) is so important -- mental/physical blueprinting...

[sambosteve]

"In Shiai Jiao (a chinese thowing art) they don't slap, but prefer to go to the ground on their side, with the arm curled up protectively under the head, cushioning it against impact. I've tried this a bit, and it feels very rough, and clumsy, to me but that could well just be my unfamiliarity with the method. They feel its a safer habit for the reality of taking a fall on rock/concrete ('protect the head' at all costs), and that armslapping is an artifact of mat-practice."

My sambo coach prefered us not to slap out and fall similar to what is noted here in regards to Shuia Jiao however, it was more than simple self protection.

He often used the analogy of a ball bounceing and rolling as well. The notion being that many people view the fall, or contact with the ground after a throw, as the end point of a movement. We were taught to look at it as more of a continuation of movement and that "stopping" our movement at contact with the ground was not only making our fall more difficult, but defeating our ability to reverse a throw. We train to fall in a ball or firm but supple fetal position (knees not together) on our side but, as a method to protect ourself by continuing the motion of the fall...think about jumping off a moving car for example - you would not even think of break falling. It is more akin to accepting the energy of your opponent's throw and going with it.

Having said that, this is why softer ground work is so critical - to learn this flow and movement. Nevertheless, many beginners do feel more comfortable with breakfalls when being thrown for the first time and I do show them how to do it but, only as a stepping stone. In order to learn how NOT to breakfall, one must know what breakfalling is. It is how the student will feel the difference between a movement oriented fall and a classic breakfall.

[KD Jones]

We were taught to look at it as more of a continuation of movement ... We train to fall in a ball or firm but supple fetal position (knees not together) on our side ... but, as a method to protect ourself by continuing the motion of the fall ... more akin to accepting the energy of your opponent's throw and going with it.

Isn't this much like the "Parkour" landings? (I know nothing about Parkour.)

[wadem]

Ah, a subject I am familiar with!

In my experience with traditional Japanese ukemi, I have found that slapping with the hand is not always necessary, but it can be a lifesaver. I do not have a lot of experience with Judo, but I can confidently comment that Judo falls can be really hard on the body compared to the practice of some other disciplines. So I think slapping is beneficial for protection when the landing is going to be hard.

If I am being thrown and have any time to read the fall, I try to land as softly as possible, like during a projection. It's a good practice. But when the throw is sharp and straight down, the speed of the rotation is much faster and more disorienting. I have landed 'into' a roll out of such throws, but it is impossible if the person throwing holds on to you. I have found the slap a great way to not only slow yourself down a bit, but a way to reorient yourself with your position in space (proprioceptive awareness?) and give you time to realign your body for a safer landing.

Overall, I think it is good to practice with and without slaps, and to practice rolls both with and without arms for variety.

Just my two cents (OK, maybe ten cents). :wink:

[gene]

ask a silat guy :)

[Trebor]

Slapping Breakfalls are our friend.

I was thrown high, hard and fast onto the concrete floor of an airplane hanger. My unconscious thankfully took over and executed a perfectly timed breakfall. I walked away with no body damage save a stinging hand. I can still hear the echo in the empty hanger. At the time I remember thinking - "Dang, those suckers do work to absorb the shock".

With that said - I'll give a grudging nod to the conditional, "it depends" crowd - if they let you roll - roll. If they let you grab them on the way down - grab.

[sambosteve]

"I walked away with no body damage save a stinging hand"

Awsome!

[Coach Jones]

Congrats on coming out of the throw virtually unscathed. Well done.

To slap or not to slap...hmmmm.

Well, as with a lot of traditional martial arts concepts, we need to look at them with our current base of knowledge.

Slapping the ground upon impact will shift the point of impact to your hand/arm/shoulder, and absolutely is the way to go.....provided you don't know or have not yet become comfortable with a better way of engaging the ground.

The slapping of the ground is just not the most efficient way to engage the ground. It is however, better than nothing in most cases.

I wsa taught to slap the ground for decades, and now, even after having become comfortable with better methods of ground engagement, I have moments of relapse. Those moments, ALWAYS result in more discomfort and stress to the joints and I, personally, work to try and minimize that.

[HereBeADragon]

I think this is another case of being able to break the rules once you learn how to follow them. For a beginner slapping the ground is helpful and allows for a safer ground engagement. Once this has been mastered than you an begin to break the rule. In my experience the best way to fall is to relax into the fall. I came to this conclusion by accident and over the course of 2 accidents none the less. The first one happened when I got one of those "towers" (one of those platforms for pullups and dips and leg raises) for my birthday, this happened about 5 years ago. I set it up on the deck in my back yard where it would be out of the way. The railing on the deck had fallen off due to age and a bad storm so no one went over there, making it a great place to train if you have no sense like me :wink: well I set it up and tried it out. I had done a few different movements on it and noticed that it was not sitting flush on the ground. At about that moment I also noticed that it was tipping sideways with me still holding onto the pullup bars. Now off my deck was a very steap hill that dropped down about 20 feet so falling down that isnt an easy proposition but I didnt have much choice at this point. So I fell. It was very strange but somehow I kind of relaxed into the fall and became more of an observer than a participant in the fall. I eventually landed and was surprised to find that I fell without injury and to be honest barely felt the impact of the fall. I also somehow managed to get out of the way of the tumbling tower coming down after me. I think that was the first time I've experienced anything close to a flow state and it showed me that you can fall pretty high without injury. The second time was after I injured my left knee and I was on crutches. Anyone whos had to use crutches knows what a daunting experience it is climbing stairs with them. Well I live in a 3 story house. I was going down stairs and somehow snagged a crutch and pitched forward. I did a flip and felt that same weird being an observer feeling and landed without even making a thud and thankfully without further injury to my leg or any other part of me. Both of these events have shown me that relaxing into a fall, I mean COMPLETELY relaxing, can protect you from injury much better than any other methods I've seen. Now my new challenge, I've experience this on accident now I need to learn to access this ability willingly and not just as an observer. Well thats my ramblings on the subject. :)

[Scott Sonnon]

Brandon,

One word: mAcademy. :twisted: Shatters all theory.

There was a joke about me in Russia when I first started training there: 'Wherever Scott goes, the wood gets softer.' Obviously, this was in reference to my Sambo/Judo background of breakfalling on the mat/tatami.

Combat Sambo and ROSS were not trained on mats but on hard wood floors and marble, and outdoors on the ice, hard ground, stones and blacktop roads ("macadam.")

That "instant biofeedback" taught US to change our approach to engaging the ground, since we were much softer than the surfaces we slapped.

The Grapplers Toolbox Ground Engagement (http://www.rmax.tv/toolbox.html) is the end result of my discoveries.

[Coach Jones]

One word: mAcademy. Shatters all theory.

I still get shivers thinking about it...LOL.


I think this is another case of being able to break the rules once you learn how to follow them. For a beginner slapping the ground is helpful and allows for a safer ground engagement. Once this has been mastered than you an begin to break the rule.

Just a quick comment on this. If i'm coaching a "beginner", I simply take a bit longer to help coach them in the more efficient approach. It may take a bit longer to get them comfortable with it, but the time needed to undue the habit of slapping, once it's engrained, more than makes up for the necessary extra time.

Using the concept of incremental progression, you can train a beginner in anything. Giving them something different now and then trying to unteach it later isn't the most efficient way to coach them, in my experience.

[Jarlo Ilano]

Using the concept of incremental progression, you can train a beginner in anything. Giving them something different now and then trying to unteach it later isn't the most efficient way to coach them, in my experience.


Now that is Truth right there!

Case in point: The nice little karate downward block I was taught as a kid.... One hand down in front and the other at my hip.... I think they were trying to kill us.... :lol:

[JasonE]

I spent years learning many ways to breakfall or roll out of stuff... and years later I still slap the mat even when I don't need to. :roll: The old ways have worked well for me, but as Brandon said, there are better ways. Hard surfaces polish falling skills like you wouldn't believe.

For me, it's counter-intuitive to work with RMAX ground engagements, but I feel it's worth the extra effort. When I teach newbies to take a fall, I take the time to work them directly into RMAX methods because it's easier to get them into it right away than to teach them two different methods (hand-slap and no-slap). I completely agree with Brandon's approach to this.

[wadem]

I have to agree with everyone's opinions on this subject. I could be an ukemi purist and argue the benefits of the traditional slapping breakfall, but I am aware of its dangers as well. I agree with an earlier post that sometimes it is good to have rules, master those first, and then break them when you are proficient.

I have had a number of near misses and slips where my instinct to slap saved me from a split skull. But I will admit that the stinging hand sucks. And I have experienced resulting aches and pains and am aware that happens due to minor trauma to the body on the impact.

Personally, I have not had any real problems trying to learn other methods of rolling. In fact, I feel that my traditional ukemi has helped me learn other methods more efficiently. I think it might depend on the individual.

Again, I also think it depends on the dynamic of the throw. I have seen a lot of demonstrations of the softer falling and I do believe the method is better overall for protection of the body and strategic positioning. But I have yet to see anyone get thrown in a way where there is nowhere to go but down, especially when the throwing party still has control of part of the falling person's body.

Perhaps I have an unconcious habit of tightening that I am not aware of that prevents me from using a softer method. If that habit exists, my goal is to get rid of it. But I have also experienced people who can cause tension your body (including breathing) by how they execute a movement. The effects are so abrupt and undetectable that I think most people would have trouble falling out of them. Just my opinion, and I may well be incorrect, but I like the discussion. :D

[JasonE]

Wade -


But I have also experienced people who can cause tension your body (including breathing) by how they execute a movement. The effects are so abrupt and undetectable that I think most people would have trouble falling out of them.

In playing with material from IOUF and Softwork, Paul and I discovered that we are subconsciously sensitive to how firmly we are gripped. We can be completely relaxed, but then the grip tightens and our arousal level spikes. This happens whether we are using jackets or not. Many judoka have a similar sensitivity, and this may be part of what you are experiencing. Since this is likely a negative consequence of how we first learned to throw, we are working on eliminating this tendency. The less we tense in response to our partner's gripping force, the easier it is to counter the throw.

[Scott Sonnon]

High amplitude throws and takedowns are caused by the following reasons:

1. Disparity in the opponents' skill level.
2. Disparity in the opponents' conditioning level.
2. Disparity in the opponents' awareness level.
3. Disparity in the opponents' fear-reactivity, density and over-tonus.

It is difficult to initially see the difference between these since they are inter-related and impact one another in a cumulative effect. All are trainable. All can be conditioned or counter-conditioned.

High amplitude throws tend to RARELY if ever happen among those who release themselves from fear-reactivity, density and over-tonus, even when there is a disparity of skill, conditioning or awareness.

"Falling" is a term loaded with fear, and a mental frame that I work to have people shift away from immediately. "Ground engagement" is a more useful mental frame.

With engaging the ground, there is the low, fast road (effective) and the high, slow road (efficient). It all depends how much time you wish to invest in yourself.

[wadem]

Hi Jason! Thank you for your perspective.

Just to clarify, the throws I was speaking of were ones experienced with me doing the grabbing (or striking). The techniques eperienced were far too precise and relaxed to get any feedback on regardless of how relaxed I was. I will say that this was not a competitive situation, but any time a counter was attempted, the end result was the same.

Through the practice my partners and I do, we have realized that our sensitivity to other people's bodies and power vectors has increased quite a bit. We are concious of the fact that this sensitivity is relative from person to person and individual skills play a part in how a technique may or may not work on someone.

Thanks for the input! This is a great discussion!

[Randell Waddell]

If one looks back over my student groups' logs, you will see that Ground Engagement (and Dis-Engagement) is a VERY MAJOR area of the work I introduce and utilize with my kids at school.

I shall not bore you, but I could extoll for hours encouraging one to consider the benefits re Fear Reactivity, Vestibular System, etc. etc .

I have little doubt that in the future, others will increasingly recognize and appreciate the advantages, in so many ways including particularly psychologically, that Ground engagement (and Dis-Engagement) affords us.

It is another area of RMAX that I hope, and believe should be extended upon greatly.

Cheers
Randell.:D

PS Scott must be so pleased I don't live over there - this is another amazing area that I would be annoying the cr.. out of him to extend upon and integrate it further with the twists and turns of BodyFlow, Prasara,etc.

I have actively encouraged people to explore variations on their own MA forms for years (eg. going "lateral" and spontaeously including Ground Engagements and Dis-Engagements to a form - one of our crew uses this approach with the Bagua Circular Form, and relays that it is one of life's absolute joys).

Ain't life grand - so many areas to explore !!!!!!!

[wadem]

Thanks for your input as well, Coach! I think you have summed up the factors involved in the process quite concisely. :D

[KD Jones]

High amplitude throws tend to RARELY if ever happen among those who release themselves from fear-reactivity, density and over-tonus, even when there is a disparity of skill, conditioning or awareness.

Newbie-style question...
Is the following a correct approximation?
fear-reactivity gives way to breathing,
density gives way to movement, and
over-tonus gives way to structure.


"Falling" is a term loaded with fear, and a mental frame that I work to have people shift away from immediately. "Ground engagement" is a more useful mental frame.

The importance of terminology. This is one of the issues that I initially had (and have heard expressed in the outside world) that caused me some confusion with regard to RMAX presentation and processes. I didn't initially understand that all (within human limits of completeness) the 'colorful' terminology has a psychological and philosophical purpose.

Unfortunately, the 'poetry' RMAX is working to overthrow may have been of similar origin. (These origins and resultant confusions have been addressed via the "magic fist" and "san shou slicing time" threads.)

Wouldn't it be wonderful if it were possible to make it clear to the curious that when poetry, metaphor and 'specialized terminology' raise their ugly heads here, it is SPECIFICALLY INTENDED directed to the service of clarity and directness in these concepts, and in the attempt to "go through the old mountains" (to steal from Coach Jones) - that this is NO word factory.

It's clear to me now, and I can only hope it eventually gets through to all who might benefit.

Blessings.

[Connie Brown]

If one looks back over my student groups' logs, you will see that Ground Engagement (and Dis-Engagement) is a VERY MAJOR area of the work I introduce and utilize with my kids at school.

I shall not bore you, but I could extoll for hours encouraging one to consider the benefits re Fear Reactivity, Vestibular System, etc. etc .
You know that reminds me, Randell. Ground engagement is a big fear for the boomers and seniors I work with too, and conversely, gaining confidence with getting up and down is THE biggest gain from CST I see - if I could draw opinions from expressions of delight and body language. Close behind it is balance, then pain-free mobility and strength. And even using the words "ground engagement" makes em laugh and is empowering.

[Randell Waddell]

Yay, Connie !!!!!!!!

(Maybe we can both annoy the cr.. out of him to put further material out in this area. :D :D :D :D :D :D )

Cheers
Randell. :D

[Randell Waddell]

Connie,

I love this area - if you are interested in tying the above in with Position of Assurance, and then aspects of BodyFlow, etc. for your people, please pm me, and I shall strive to video and relay some material that I believe may be helpful for your crew.

Cheers
Randell. :D

[JasonE]

Newbie-style question...
Is the following a correct approximation?
fear-reactivity gives way to breathing,
density gives way to movement, and
over-tonus gives way to structure.

Fear-reactivity gives way to Spontaneous Creativity,
Density gives way to Plasticity,
Over-tonus gives way to Supple Sensitivity.

Breath becomes unforced and integrated.
Movement quality improves.
Structure aligns itself to handle force as efficiently as possible.

[KD Jones]

Nice, Jason. Thanks.

[Scott Sonnon]

KD,

I would only that add that fear-reactivity, density and over-tonus are inter-related and impact each other in a cumulative fashion. However, to be extremely general, it's more appropriate to relate fear-reactivity to breath, (myofascial) density to structure and over-tonus to movement. This is discussed in Integrating Structure.

[Connie Brown]

Connie,

I love this area - if you are interested in tying the above in with Position of Assurance, and then aspects of BodyFlow, etc. for your people, please pm me, and I shall strive to video and relay some material that I believe may be helpful for your crew.

Cheers
Randell. :D
Yes please!!

[Randell Waddell]

No probs, Connie - I worked on this with my little boy Josh (now aged 8 ) a couple of years ago - I'll see if we can reactivate it in his body quickly so you can see a child doing it as well.

Please pm me the best email address so I can send it direct - I shall put it into QuickTime if you can open it in this format.

Cheers
Randell. :D

[KD Jones]

others (me) would like to see this as well... (pry pry pry)

[Charlie]

me too please Randell! Perhaps you should upload it to www.yousendit.com for ease of distribution.

[KD Jones]

Thank you, Coach Sonnon - I will order and work on absorbing Integrating Structure.
(EDIT: Removed the rest of this post. It was off-topic - will post seperately.)

[Randell Waddell]

Morning Charlie,

I'll have a chat with Scott - perhaps I could put together a collection of video footage that highlights some of the different things I do with my various kids' groups, and make it availible for all somehow.

Who else would be interested ?

Material for kids with Learning Difficulties ?
Material that would support general learning in school and else where ?
Material for Gifted and Talented kids ?
Material that supports Anti-bullying initiatives I have done.
Whole heap of other stuff as well.

( I am just entering a new phase of my own personal training, and would have to drop this out of my brain cells sooner rather than later.)

Cheers
Randell. :D

PS Sorry for hijacking this thread - I'll start another in general area, and delete it if Scott is not really interested.

[Scott Sonnon]

Randell,

Let's move it and keep it in the Member Article Archive, so only registered members can read and/or participate. Your thread has been moved.

[Randell Waddell]

No probs.

R. :D

[Charlie]

Afternoon Randell* and other folk,

Does someone out there who does no-slap falling have a video-camera? I'd love to see you get thrown using a slap, and then thrown the same way but this time not using a slap. Ideally it would not be a projective 'Aikido' type throw that you can gracefully roll out of, but an abrupt vertical 'Judo' type throw. As Wadem wrote, "But I have yet to see anyone get thrown in a way where there is nowhere to go but down [and they can do 'soft' falling] especially when the throwing party still has control of part of the falling person's body." Me too.

All this talk sounds great, but I'm finding it difficult to actually visualize responding to a throw that way - I just see my arm held tight at my side, not really participating in the absorbtion. Perhaps that is basically all there is to see with the method, and I'm not arguing against it; does make a certain sense, what with all the small bones, etc. (And when contests come up, our coaches exhort us to 'not slap' in a match, so I know it is done, albeit perhaps crudely). But a brief video demonstration would make this all much clearer.

cheers!

* ps. Hey mate I've just moved house, so if you're ever coming down to Coff's Harbour, let me know!

[Scott Sonnon]

Grapplers Toolbox Ground Engagement and IOUF.

[sambosteve]

Charlie,

I will work on getting some short vids for you.

Steve

[Charlie]

Scott: I've bought IOUF but its buried in boxes; I look forward to watching it again.

Stephen: .... waiting in eager anticipation, cheers!

[wadem]

I will have to go back and watch IOUF, Grappler's Toolbox, and Ground Engagement. I am sure that I will pick up things I didn't before and will try to implement the methods in my practice going forward. I will be very excited if there is a big difference. :P

[Ryan Murdock]

I don't have access to a video camera, perhaps in the New Year at my training group's, but I'd be happy to demo this if no one gets to it by Jan. Back in the day I was routinely hip-thrown on concrete and absorbed the falls no prob and slap free. A lot of it involved breathing out, relaxing, and protecting your bony bits :wink:

[mtan2]

Time to brush the dust off of some old videos. One thing I love about this is that I can always go back and find something new... or at least a new spin on material I had covered before. Time for me to revisit GTB!
It seems that the more practice, effort and time one puts in, the deeper one is able to delve into the adventure. With experience, one is able to "see more" in something.
I'll have to see where this takes me when my judo classes pick up again after the new year.