muscle for muscles sake

[chrisk211]

hello everyone, just a few observations on what i've noticed and please correct me if i'm wrong, no disrespect intended, a few posts i've noticed make me think that using clubs or freeweights, to build muscle past what is needed for a chosen sport or health is wrong or unhealthy, part of the reason i started lifting was to get huge, should i go back to freeweights? will clubs not give better results?should they be not used soley for that purpose? any answers or pov's please.

[KD Jones]

find some pictures of coach szolek and coach jones. see if you could live with that kind of meat. there's also an article that shows before and afters for coaches sonnon, jones and chomycia.

if that's huge enough, then you'll have the additional benefits of trasferrability to other real world skills, which, in my opinion, is nice...

others who are more experienced have opinions and facts as well...

[Scott Sonnon]

What is huge, and why do you want it?

[Cody Fielding]

Hi Chris,

These questions do come up as folks begin their experimentation with RMAX materials. Below are a couple of links I think speak to your point.

That being, aesthetics are at the bottom of the values that this community is working for - I would put muscle for muscle sake in that category.

As a long time personal trainer for example, I no longer take on clients who's primary goal is physique. Many times when people first approach me they tell me first they want to look better. But I'm pleasantly surprised at how many people are willing to walk away from that given the opportunity, some folks are actually relieved they don't have to focus on how they look. Rather, it is a byproduct of the process.

Have a look at these links, let us know what you think.

http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8447&highlight=hierarchy

http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7533&highlight=hierarchy

Cheers,
C-

[chrisk211]

thanks for the replys, for me huge has always been a trip not destinaton, i'll never know when i get there because i probably never will get there if you understand what i mean, and as for why maybe its the image that i like for myself, personal apperence, the feeling i get from making progressively heavier lifts,even though such size may not be always useful , helpful, or easy to maintain. and to a certain degree the image that is presented to others. as for the pictures of the coach and others they are impressive

[chrisk211]

cody, thanks for the links the pictures in the links are sick! abnormal(subjective) growth byproducts from bad training and bad drugs, thats not at all what i'm about, i think i have a different pov and opinion than most posters here, i don't think thats bad though. i still cant wait to get my clubbells and start using them.

[KD Jones]

I don't think you're as misunderstood as you might feel.

To be honest (which is embarrassing for me, usually, due to content issues) I know that how I look affects me. I still tend to like to carry some additional shoulder meat, because of a person can do with it in terms of both work and play - like dealing with chores and dangling my daughters over head - as well as for the fact that where I come from, a broad shoulder alone buys a guy a little more personal space. Sad, embarrassing, but true... though I suppose in the wrong company it could also buy one a threat.

The way I look, what I see in the mirror, still affects how I feel about myself as well. Perhaps only because when I think I look stronger, my mind makes me stronger... don't know why, really. I may or may not ever get over that one, but I can see the benefit of that link not being so deep.

I always liked the pure work and sweat and grind of lifting. Never really did it efficiently, never got huge, really. But, still liked having something more.

In my brief travels with RMAX, I've found that whatever the thing about having muscular bulk did for me, is slowly being fulfilled in other ways. I don't know how far that will go, I don't really understand how yet, and I don't have any desire to lose any pounds, either. But one thing RMAX is likely to help you do, is find out why you want to do... well, whatever it is you want to do. And if it's different than whatever anyone else wants to do, that's completely cool, you'll be able to be more honest with whatever it is, and possibly get more out of it.

And, if it changes into something resembling what others want to do (here's another really cool part) it still WON'T be what others do. It'll fit you, it'll be yours, completely.

That's my feeling, early in the game. If you try to just "suspend disbelief," give the materials an honest shot, my dollars-to-doughnuts bet is that you'll inevitably gain from it. All you need is honestly and due diligence.

Keep posting your results and thoughts.

Blessings.

[Scott Sonnon]

Chris,

There's an opportunity that when you begin working with CST, the Intuitive Training approach will help you become aware of the internal event of physical exercise, and you may just see your goals change.

If you're singular goal is to get "huge", you will find CST too challenging for you for many factors: recovery must be in balanced ratio with work, tissues must be strengthened to their full range, mobility smooths "muscle-bound" girth, to name a few.

[KD Jones]

when i grow up, i hope to know enough to be half that direct. i love it here.

[Nick1974]

I think everyone that trains started training for one of the following reasons:

1. to look better (read: bigger and leaner (men), smaller and leaner (women))
2. to perform better (in martial arts, or sports, or in a chosen physical activity)
3. to overcome a health problem

Any of the above goals will have been triggered by one or a combination of the following :

1. to make up for a perceived inadequacy or generalised inferiority complex (ie to be good at sport to compensate for being bad at maths, or to bodybuild to compensate for being physically smaller than average)
2. for vanity (to show off, attract attention from the opposite sex, or to rise up the pecking order in a peer group)
3. self protection and/or elimination of fear of physical attack or bullying
4. to emulate a hero figure (whose performance or appearance struck a chord with us emotionally)
5. to become a respected member of a community or tribe (eg a football team)
6. to elimate the pain and misery of a health problem

That's the start - as we travel along our unique path of physical culture exploration our goals and motives change, and overlap, and intertwine and become infinitely complex, and vary depending on what we read, see, believe or experience, and events or chance opportunities lead us down a different paths (eg an injury may lead us down a 'softer' rehab based protocol, or a football player may discover a talent for powerlifting etc etc)

Every individual is completely unique in their combination of motives and abilities and goals (and at any momemt in time they are at a unique point on their own path).

Personally I find it unfortunate that we tend to 'poo-poo' people whose goals and motivations are different from our own (within physical culture) because in my belief we are all coming from the same place emotionally, in our attempts to better our lives and our self esteem.

Just my thoughts - not really an answer to the original posters question though. :?

[Scott Sonnon]

Nick,

I take issue with the insinuation that we here "poo-poo" questions from fledgling CST Athletes. There is a monumental difference between derogating someone's intentions and fulfilling a moral obligation to "do no harm" - which bodybuilding definitely is, harm. Can CST provide a powerful, beautiful physique? I would say much more so than the grotesque mutations of bodybuilding.

Other companies and organizations do not blanche at playing to people's insecurities and fears, and creating products and services to drain people's hard-earned money by exploiting those insecurities and fears. Some even hide the fact that their methods are so harmful and dangerous that the "leaders" who are representing those tools suffer a litany of injuries and daily chronic pain. If the front men of these approaches are debilitated, then the customer should know it and be able to make an informed decision to do the same, or choose a healthier, more results-providing option, such as RMAX.

RMAX, however, calls to a deeper sense of confidence and well-being, and helps build that confidence and well-being by offering uniquely powerful FREE resources like CST Magazine, this very forum, and the single BEST customer service department in the biz.

If you re-read the responses carefully, I think you will see that a significantly greater service has been given to the questioner than to answer, "sure just lift ABC for XYZ and you'll be huge, healthy and happy" - when that just isn't the case. And it is that very deliberate care which has established RMAX as a unique and transformative organization over the past decade of its leadership in the fitness, wellness and martial art industries.

[Nick1974]

Coach,

Ironically my insinuation was directed at other communities in the physical culture arena - RMAX is one of the few that have transcended that pettiness, and that leads by example. In my post the use of the word "we" was more of a "royal we" or "we as human beings", not anyone on this forum.

sincere apologies if I offended anyone in this community - it was not my intent.

if I could rewrite my post I would say:


"Personally I find it unfortunate that many physical culturalists have a tendency to 'poo-poo' people whose goals and motivations are different from their own (within physical culture) because in my belief we are all coming from the same place emotionally, in our attempts to better our lives and our self esteem and RMAX recognises this and offers a COMPLETE system to help us achieve ALL of the aforementioned goals (not just one of them, while "poo-pooing" the others) safely and healthfully and to reach our ultimate goal of higher self esteem and enjoyment of life. That's why I am here! :) )"

Sorry again for the misunderstanding.

[Coach Jones]

Just wanted to throw this in...

When I lost the fat i'd been carrying around for a while (50 pounds) I had a problemn with being smaller. Though it was clear that I was stronger, had more muscle and could use it more efficiently, I still had this feeling like I NEEDED to be bigger.

Over time and practice (read as CST), my view shifted. I began to see that being able to move and use what strength I had, was more important to me than just being percieved as being strong because I was big.

One thing that consistantly helps to reaffirm that is being in the gym when a guy much larger than myself comes in, sees me with the "bats" and comes over to "try them out". When he can't heft the bruisers off the floor he usually has to go over and horque out a few reps on the bench, as though this somehow makes it okay.

Now here's the rub. I can still, without having lifted conventional weights for years, go in and put up respectable weight. It doesn't work the other way, however. Bench as he might, try as he might, that bench press muscle will never translate over to functionality.

Not saying there's anything wrong with that kind of training. Im just saying that through CST. you may just end up changing your perception.

[SAB]

I guess it depends what your definition of becoming muscular is.

I have a fast metabolism, am naturally tall and skinny and I train Gracie Jiu Jitsu multiple times a week - ie. intense workout - so the ability to put on muscle mass is REALLY limited.

However, I've been pleasantly suprised with the muscle I've put on doing just 10lb and 15lb clubbell work - especially considering thats not why my goal in using them....

[Scott Sonnon]

Nick,

My apologies for the misunderstanding on this end. :oops: Relief to hear we're on the same page! :D

[chrisk211]

First off THANKS!!! to everyone that replyed for the advice and info. second I have a question for Coach Sonnon, you stated that bodybuilding is definately doing harm to the body. could you please give me some theory or knowledge behind it? or tell me where i can find it. i'm not afraid to try something new or different i just would like to know as much possible.

[Scott Sonnon]

Bodybuilding is as physiologically close to death as you can arrive while still remaining animate. The belief in isolation, the deliberate binding of muscle shortening, the dangerous strain of connective tissue and compression of joint capsules, the inappropriate bulking taxing the cardiovascular system, these are just a few of the physiological results.

The psychological and emotional results of bodybuilding include distorted self image which result in a lifetime search for happiness which bodybuilding cannot provide. Life is not in the mirror. As someone who has helped fitness models and bodybuilders recover from the psychological damage, it is a dangerous slippery slope.

People are conditioned by the media who pushes sex and survival buttons (hard-wired triggers that marketing companies unscrupulously manipulate) to believe that if they have the appearance of strength, if they look big and strong, that they will be happy.

But it's as simple as realizing in REALITY it's not that you want to "look good." But rather you want to FEEL good. Looking good is a byproduct of feeling good. To feel good, there are different choices you must make in life, and especially in your fitness.

Gratification, centeredness, contentment (as opposed to resignation) and fulfillment, these things are always and already yours for the reclaiming. But you will never find happiness in the seeking, in the mirror. It's a problematic, tragic journey of the ego.

Read through CST Magazine. You'll find an enormous volume of articles of both principle explanation and practical application.

[Robert V]

This is a very sensitive topic for me. I never trained for pure "bulk" or muscle, rather it came from a by-product of my linear strength training.
However, when I came to yoga and Bodyflow I began to focus more on training movement rather than muscle. My strength training focused more on core activation, whether it was BMEs, clubbells or Olympic lifting. My goal was still to train my movement. The core muscles initated all efficient movement therefore I put my efforts there.

The challenging part comes when I decided I wanted more range of motion in certain areas and I stopped doing specific movements that would "isolate" certain specific muscles. I phased out all movements that did not contribute to my goal of "sophisticating my movement".

This lead to me losing muscle mass in certain areas. It was a blow(still is) to my ego. This is especially difficult when you are around 40 and you have a lower metabolism and you can't gain muscle as quisckly. Sure I could to the extra work, but I only have a small amount of time when I not teaching for my personal training, and I just can't bare to use that time doing "non-functional" movements. I'd rather spend that time doing "specific performance" training for the clinch.

I feel in time (a few years) I can abate all the tension I gained from doing non-funtional training that once built muscle. That muscle building did not enhance my movement or my daily life.

Now, I'm as functionally strong as I've ever been, but I'm also moving better than I did 15 years ago.

It's difficult when you are young to see past the muscle, for it's "movement" in the later years you will desire...need!

That's why I praise the 20ish crowd on here for there early wisdom.

I'll take movement over mass any day now.

[SAB]

Bodybuilding is as physiologically close to death as you can arrive while still remaining animate. The belief in isolation, the deliberate binding of muscle shortening, the dangerous strain of connective tissue and compression of joint capsules, the inappropriate bulking taxing the cardiovascular system, these are just a few of the physiological results.

The psychological and emotional results of bodybuilding include distorted self image which result in a lifetime search for happiness which bodybuilding cannot provide. Life is not in the mirror. As someone who has helped fitness models and bodybuilders recover from the psychological damage, it is a dangerous slippery slope.

People are conditioned by the media who pushes sex and survival buttons (hard-wired triggers that marketing companies unscrupulously manipulate) to believe that if they have the appearance of strength, if they look big and strong, that they will be happy.

But it's as simple as realizing in REALITY it's not that you want to "look good." But rather you want to FEEL good. Looking good is a byproduct of feeling good. To feel good, there are different choices you must make in life, and especially in your fitness.

Gratification, centeredness, contentment (as opposed to resignation) and fulfillment, these things are always and already yours for the reclaiming. But you will never find happiness in the seeking, in the mirror. It's a problematic, tragic journey of the ego.

This post is amazing. Thought about it a lot in the last few days, and I'm someone that has little personal interest in 'body building'.
I think it should be on the front page of the clubbell.tv website !

[maxmoon]

"There's an opportunity that when you begin working with CST®, the Intuitive Training approach will help you become aware of the internal event of physical exercise, and you may just see your goals change."


Nicely said coach- and so very true! that is exactly what smacked me right in the face-i am certainly glad it did 8)

max

[Scott Sonnon]

Your waist is a terrible thing to mind. 8)

[Glenn Sunshine]

Scott, was that really necessary? :shock: :lol:

[Connie Brown]

Glenn, art is what you do when you don't have to.

[Nick1974]

[quote]

This post is amazing. Thought about it a lot in the last few days, and I'm someone that has little personal interest in 'body building'.
I think it should be on the front page of the Clubbell®.tv website !

I agree with Steve 100%. I have thought about it a lot too, and I return to it in my mind every time I am tempted to load up a squat bar. The bodybuilding mentally has been drilled into me by the mass fitness media for many many years and it is damn hard to get it out of my system. I was a very unhappy person when I started my attempts at bodybuilding many years ago,and the more I stuck at it the unhappier I got. I also hurt my knees, lower back and rotator cuffs, had no energy throughout the day, dreaded my workouts and felt inferior to every male that was larger than me (and that was most males). My teens and 20s were a misery. I thought bodybuilding was the answer to that misery. It wasn't. It reinforced that misery becuase I had programmed myself to belive that when I got big I would be happy, therefore I was unhappy in the meantime. And to make matters worse it didn't even work for me (ie I didn't even put on any muscle!!).

I could go on and on - but you get the picture.

I would ask that Coach Sonnon's post above, combined with his post earlier in this thread (about the morality of RMAX) be combined into an article for the CST magazine. More people need to read this excellent piece of writing. It strikes at the heart of those that it is referring to.

[KD Jones]

I agree, though I humbly add that some of the terminology be "eased up" (though it is, in fact, direct and true and not overstated as is) so as to not fly directly in the faces of those new to the concepts... there has to be a point of entry...

[Scott Sonnon]

Nick,

I'll work on it, amigo!

[SAB]

Excellent. I've already cut and pasted for a few friends heavily into pure bodybuilding, but a CST magazine article would be great.

[Scott Sonnon]

Here it is: http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8878