careless black belts?!

[maxmoon]

hey tribe- i just wanted to get some feedback on the state of martial arts instructors these days!

before i type any further i just want to state that i am not trying to rock the boat sort of say and knock down people with black belts! i just want to get the tribes opinion on this true life story that happened to a friend of mine!

about 10 years ago this person was taking tae kwon dow at a local school here in Ontario! i was talking to her last night asking her how her volley ball playing has progressed(she loves the game) and she told me that its been great except for the injury she got 10 years ago that seems to still be present! I asked her what happened?!?!

what she told me got me very upset! of course i kept my cool-but to me this was a big deal.

she told me that when she was 18 she was at class one night doing stretches as her(MASTER)instructed! now there is nothing wrong with that! i mean a black belt martial artist should be very aware of how the body works right?-especially when it comes to stretching! after all, the students put trust in the instructor to guide them safely and provide the best possible ways for them to reach their INDIVIDUAL needs! being a black belt says that the person worked hard for many years in the system of the martial arts,knows allot,especially the fact that we are not all the same internally-especially if we have never practiced martial arts right?

well what happened was she was doing her stretches and the instructor came up from behind her and pushed down on her shoulders and forced one of the hip joints to literally pop- ouch! now that's what pissed me off!

she stopped going to class i assume because of this stupid and careless experience!

the after math was that she couldn't play her favorite game of volley ball for up to 4 years because of the injury! tried everything! spent money here and there! now, she plays today and has been for years and i respect her will to not give up on what she loves because of such a set back! still she tells me that the area hurts! and i have no doubts that this 10 year old injury is still getting in the way of her love for for the game and progress!

Now what i wanted to know is it really smart to force your body past its stretch reflex- is this being done even today? hearing her story sent shivers down my spine because i imaged the picture crystal clear :(

being part of the tribe i have learned how to understand my body!learned more then i ever have from so called black belt establishments!

what bugs me about her story is that in my opinion- its just dumb to force someone way beyond their body's stretch reflex without even considering that their might be pre conditions in the individual-was there any assessments done-i highly doubt it!- was it even considered how this push would effect the student-or was it all dictated by the system. I cant help but to feel for her her-because her injury was not HER fault! it was simply lack of understanding of the human body-and dare i say complete stupidity on the part of the black belt master :shock:

i don't think i have to get into more details on why such instruction is bad! most of us that practice cst know that great healthy joint mobility results in functional flexibility! And yeah i am aware that the stretches involved must have been to improve kicking! but cant that even be done smart! instead of ripping and forcing the student to to tare the muscles past its stretch reflex!

i apologize in advance if the post seems negative or bitchy! but i didn't know who to turn to for some feedback! and i am not calling people with black belts stupid! i am simply talking about this tragic incident that happened to some one i know! and i believe the carelessness of this particular instructor caused this unnecessary trauma that my friend has been dealing with for up to 10 years!

i appreciate your thoughts! and ask for some feedback and opinions on what happened here!

thank you

max

[s a fossett]

max

unfortunately, the martial arts world (east and west) is absolutely full of "instructors" who are, to put it mildly, idiots. of course, there are plenty of great ones too. being able to tell the difference is something that is very difficult for someone with no experience.

even sometimes great practicioners are awful at teaching. i know that some of my personal heroes growing up were actually really bad teachers. luckily for me, they stuck to what they did best most of the time - kicking ass. i was able to learn by watching them rather than trying to make any sense of the stupid things they sometimes told me.

it's a real shame, but i believe that part of the problem is that most people get into martial training originally for some ego-related purpose or other. they chose instructors that look tough, have impressive-sounding credentials, or will give them black belts as quickly as possible. they do this instead of looking for instructors that show signs of intelligence and teaching ability. i always tell people to chose an instructor as if they were interviewing a babysitter for their newborn, but it seem smost folks just want the superficial stuff.

if consumers stopped supporting martial candy, there would be less of these guys out there hurting their students (whether physically as in the case of your friend, or psychologically, etc).

i have to say, i think your friend got really unlucky, because i don't hear this kind of story (not to such a degree of injury) all that often. but i still hear them, and lesser ones more than i wish i would. the sane and scientific methods of personal development contained within rmax are a big improvement over what most of us have had to work with up until now.

hopefully, the future will bring the rmax methods further into the public light, and these kinds of negligence will become a thing of the past.

[Paul Keith]

Max;
a similar incident happened to me about ten years ago, I have been struggleing with the ramifications of the injury ever since.

The state of martial arts regulation is abysmal here in the US it is completly unregulated (I am not sure about Canada). I could literally open a school tomorow with no training, I could even get semi legitimate association papers (mail order) to help me snow potential students.

I know many people are in favor of keeping the MA industry unregulated, but I am not one of them, I think there should be at least be a basic fitness cert. required from a reputable source. (dont get me started on the fitness industry witch is almost as bad) so that people at least dont injure their students.

I sympathize with you and your friend, and hope she can rehab herself and get past her injury.

[Vbrown]

That sort of thing is all too common with a wide variety of people that are given automatic credibility.

The people that I train very often have had personal trainers in the past and when they tell me what they were doing....it makes me want to weep.

Too many people are willing to abdicate their own health and wellbeing to others without a second thought.

Vince

[KD Jones]

I've been thinking about exactly this... and wondering about the answer.

Government licensing of trainers/instructors? Eeek. Meaningful physiology/anatomy in the grades? Um, yeah. Scott Sonnon doing informercials? Well, if anyone could pull it off... but...

And it struck me... the only sensible approach it INTUITIVE TRAINING.

I'm thinking about trying it. Maybe I'll post something about whether it works or not.

[HereBeADragon]

I've seen way to many teachers that try to teach what they dont know. I recall my first teacher (terms for him I will leave out as this is polite company) man knew nothing about fitness and even less the martial art he claimed to teach. He would not promote me to my next belt because I could not preform a proper spinning back kick, I could not do this because of a knee injury I had gotten in an earlier class. Another teacher I knew demanded students practice their punches full force holding dumbbells and refused to hear anything about how this does not infact do much to increase speed and how this can cause damage to joints.

Personally I dont like the idea of a government regulatory system on martial arts. Isnt that what all your years of training is? Isnt that what the certificate you receive along with your belt ranking for? Isnt your teacher the one who tests you and decideds your ready to teach? I would deeply resent taking a $500+ dollar course (average minimum I've seen in massage and personal training courses) to be allowed to teach after years of training and years of paying my dues to my teacher. Also with all the variety and range in martial arts how could there be a standardized test? Besides I'm far from impressed with most personal trainers out there and they need to be certified to work in most health clubs dont they?

[Ryan Murdock]

Max,

Most of my prior MA experience was with one bunch before going independent and then becoming involved with RMAX, but I can say that there was absolutely no notion of conditioning, let alone sport-specific conditioning, in anything I was taught back then. At best we were shown a handful of obsolete and largely irrelevent static stretches and were told to "warm up" with these prior to training. Once in a while a phase would set in where they would create these maniacal half hour "warm ups" where the experienced guys would put everyone else through the paces with excercises that were too advanced, or irrelevant but taxing (hundreds of jumping jacks, for example :roll: ), mainly in an effort to demonstrate that the top teir were "superhuman" and the rest mere worms.

This total lack of delivery-system-specific conditioning is one of the things I'm addressing in my current DVD project.

In the area of irresponsibility, idiotic training practices were rife. People suffered lasting injuries through stupid training practices, or were injured deliberately. This irresponsible behaviour was specific to the smaller training organization that I was a part of, and I do not generalize that to the larger tradition (read that again please, as I've been misinterpreted on that point several times in the past).

The absence of understanding of conditioning, from what I saw, was part of the larger organization/tradition. I don't chalk this up to willful ignorance, as many people sought conditioning methods outside the martial tradition. But for the most part, until the advent of CST, those methods were detrimental or irrelevant (for ex, bodybuilding protocols of strength training have no carryover to the mats and end up inhibiting movement ability; power breathing is even worse - I say this from experience, cause I tried it all).

It's no surprise that conditioning was absent (I'm not talking about things like pounding your hands into a bucket of peas to build up toughened knuckles - I mean a concept of athleticism). Many of these martial traditions developed at a time when the vast majority of people worked on the land, in the forges,... and so had no need of additional physical exercise. Many of the "conditioning" methods that they did have, like the hand toughening exercises I mention above, seemed like a good idea at the time but are harmful or unnecessary today. The benefit of punishing your hands and toughening them up may have outweighed the detriments at a time when the average life expectancy was 40 and arthritis didn't have a chance to set in. But in our age of computers and high technology manual dexterity is more important than hands like clubs. Further, with the advent of firearms, huge calloused knuckles (rather than palms) is likely to get you shot in the back... It's a dumb dead giveaway that you "train"... :roll: Craftiness trumps brute force every time.

But I digress. My final point is that sports science has come a long way in the last 50 years, and we have tools at our disposal that the founders of these MA systems never had. I don't understand why anyone would cling to obsoltete methods simply because they're old, or "it's always been done that way." Blind obedience to tradition is just plain stupid. The founders of these systems obviously didn't think that way, else how would they have evolved and created as they did? As Brandon Jones said so aptly here on the Forum - just because it's old doesn't make it good. It just makes it old.

[Scott Sonnon]

Ryan,

This entire thread validates the broadbase need for your upcoming DVD release. I, for one, am very excited about it!!

[Coach Gostnell]

As a Black Belt & TKD instructor, I have never seen such careless behavior on the part of instructors at our school, but I believe it's more by accident than design. We happen to be blessed w/ instructors who are thoughtful, careful & either have some training or advance their own education, (and are, not the least, of it, mature) but there's little in the instructor trainee program that addresses stretching, much less the inherent dangers.

I'm concerned that as the school grows, some of the younger students trying for instructor may be a little too inexperienced, uneducated and enthusiastic in their methods. That, coupled with insufficient supervision is a disaster waiting to happen.

Part of my personal mission there is to incorporate more "intuitive training" into warmups, less static stretching, more ROM, and BREATHING, etc. And, even though they can kick higher than I can, the young bucks have to respect me, not just because I outrank them, but because, thanks to Body Flow, I can demonstrate a few "tricks" that have their mouths dropping open. (I'm not even that good at Body Flow, but these guys have trouble with a Shinbox Switch, never mind a Neck Roll.)

[Coach Jones]

I'm with you guys about the poor instruction, but with a bit of a twist...

I've had my share of horrible instructors. However, I don't support regulating the martial arts at all. Too difficult.

Like Vince said:


Too many people are willing to abdicate their own health and wellbeing to others without a second thought.

That's the problem. We have to understand that a black belt does not mean you know everything. I have more than a few and what I don't know is A LOT! :lol:

You have to research, read, talk to people. You should invest your time to find out if that instructor is right for YOU before you put your time, energy and health in the hands of someone else.

That's what it comes down to, is the instructor right for you.

If your in it for health...does the instructor look healthy? Do his students?

If you're in it for fighting (self defense, self protection, etc) can the instructor fight? Can his/her students?

These are questions you have to ask and it comes down to personal responsibility.

Then there's the matter of tradition. I think people ought to be able to teach something traditional. It's not really for me anymore, but they should still be able to teach it. If you want to take Fu Jow Pai (Tiger Claw) you should at least have the option to train the old way. Though cooking your hands might not appeal to most people these days, those esoteric practices are the cornerstone of the system and should be, in my opinion, available. Are they safe? LAND SAKES, NO!! They're dangerous, unhealthy, and will probably cause lifelong health problems that will plague you for the rest of your life...but it should still be an option.

Again, personal responsibility.


He would not promote me to my next belt because I could not preform a proper spinning back kick, I could not do this because of a knee injury I had gotten in an earlier class. Another teacher I knew demanded students practice their punches full force holding dumbbells and refused to hear anything about how this does not infact do much to increase speed and how this can cause damage to joints.

While I agree that sucks, if that instructor thinks a spinning back kick is that important in his system, then it is. It's a system. When you step outside of the construct of a system, you can adapt to whatever physical limitations a student may have.

Here's an example of what I mean:

A few years ago there was a climber who had his legs amputated. He recieved worldwide exposure for being the first parapalegic to climb this very difficult route on some mountain which name escapes me at the moment. Watching the clip of his "climb" he wasn't climbing at all, but jumaring up a rope which was put up by someone else.

(a jumar is basically like a ratchet, you push it up the rope, it locks, and you pull yourself up and repeat.) While

While the feat was still very impressive and inspiring on it's own, he didn't climb anything. My point is that if a system dictates that you perform a spinning back kick or a double lindy or whatever, then if you want to study that system, you need to know it.


Another teacher I knew demanded students practice their punches full force holding dumbbells and refused to hear anything about how this does not infact do much to increase speed and how this can cause damage to joints.

An instructor's job is to teach. Though what he teaches or how he teaches might very well suck, he's still there to teach. It's not the job of the student to tell the teacher how he'd like to be taught.

Back when I had my school, I saw a lot of people who wanted to learn to fight without fighting or sparring. When I would tell them that there was no way on god's green earth they would ever get a black belt from me without serious time spent with contact...many would leave. That was their perogative.


I think there should be at least be a basic fitness cert. required from a reputable source. (dont get me started on the fitness industry witch is almost as bad) so that people at least dont injure their students.

What is reputable? Right now, the conventional "wisdom" is still bodybuilding oriented. Regulation would always go with the status quo.

The problem is that martial arts is inherantly dangerous. You take that responsibility on yourself when you walk in the door. Doesn't mean you should submit yourself to every crazy whim of any old instructor, just means you have to use your head. If it doesn't feel right don't do it, go somewhere else.

With government regulation all martial arts would be dancing and point fighting. Nothing wrong with those endevours if that's what you like but personally, I prefer to have the option.

Freedom of choice. :wink:

[KD Jones]

I should point out that I didn't mean to say that gov't regs would be a good idea. As Brandon said, it could only lead to a soulless, unevolving, pedantic system.

My current instructor refers to his system's black belt as a "learner's permit." The idea is that once one is there, they've got the software and hardware to make whatever is choosen/needed truly ones own.

I've watched a progression of black belts come in to challenge him, get beaten... in almost every case they stumble for an explanation that saves their investment in their system... and failing that, wipe the experience from their memory. In the majority of cases, we never see them again.

With that much invested, and the liklihood that they've built into themselves some ability to persevere, it's almost unimaginable that the desire to feel "right" and "complete" would outweigh something more to be learned.

[maxmoon]

thank u very much for the feedback! lots of stuff to consider here!

i understand that its the responsibility of the person who chooses a martial arts school to know and sense what the instructor is like! but at the same time people who enroll into these schools are often young or lacking some sort of experience to be able to fully see the underlying truths sort of say!

accidents do happen-but when they happen out of stupid practices and training protocols its just not fare for the inexperienced person!

from the responses i got, i get the sense that the accident was my friends fault for joining the school in the first place-i disagree with that- sitting there doing your stretches, no conscious person will tare and rip their muscles and cause such damage because,well, the pain of to much force would stop them-what happened here was a surprise forceful push which was unexpected!

from my life experience when i had a huge desire to be a martial artist in some kind of system-i know that even 4 years ago before learning of many things-i could have blindly learned and practiced what ever the black belt instructor would dish out- my point is, not every one has certain life experience or knowledge to see that some practices in the school are not safe! we learn from childhood to trust our elders so i think placing the blame on the students is not right!

i will not continue this thread because the topic its self is confusing to me and i certainly agree with most that's been said!

thank you for your thoughts and replies :D helped me understand my frustration from this incident!

max

[Coach Jones]

I wasn't trying to place the blame solely on the student. I'm just saying that we can't legislate our way to good teaching. Innevitably what happens is that the essence is lost in an attempt to make it safer.

There are teachers out there who have no business teaching, but there will always be and we have to take that onboard and go into it with our eyes open. Look at it critically and decide what's best for us.

You're right on the money when you say that a lot of people who sign up for these classes are young and inexperienced and they can't be held fully responsible for understanding that the practices may be harmful. You're right. In my opinion, this responsibility then falls to the parents to investigate thoroughly before entrusting their children's health to someone else.

It would be great if we could magically maek the bad teachers go away, but it won't happen no matter how many laws are put into place.

Just like you can't legislate morality, you can't legislate intelligence either (though wouldn't that be great :lol: ).

My point about the martial arts being inherantly dangerous is this...

Who decides where to draw the line in a martial arts class as far as saftey goes? Do we stop all sparring because it might be dangerous? Do we stop stretching because their could be an injury? I'm not saying that the instructor mentioned wasn't at fault. He was, clearly. I'm just saying that there's just no effective way to govern martial arts accredidation, in my opinion, without cheapening and weakening it even more than it already has been.

In California where you "can't sign away your rights" a waiver is pretty much pointless. Many martial arts teachers have disallowed sparring in their schools because of this. If someone does get hurt, they can sue. The students in these schools are effectively crippled by the legislation already in place and simply put will never experience the art they so badly wanted to learn. It's a shame.

[Glenn Sunshine]

An instructor in one of the arts I studied told me that he didn't know any black belts in his style that hadn't had either arthroscopic surgery on their knees or surgery on their shoulders due to training injuries. I think he said this thinking it showed how dangerous and hardcore the style was, but as I thought about it, it showed me how irrational it was. If your "warrior art" produces injured warriors, how effectively are they going to fight? As RMAX has it, health has to come first!

[Coach Jones]

Absolutely, Glenn. You couldn't be more right. That's the purpose behind incremental progression. By the same token, though, we have to be careful not to be afraid to traverse into areas necessary for growth, simply because we fear the possibility of injury. We take all the precautions we can to make sure as much as possible that an injury won't occur but the possibility is still always there.

[Scott Sonnon]

Glenn,

I gave a seminar along side of several grandmasters who were presenting as well. The one asked me to come over to him. I assumed he wanted to use me as an uke. (They all love using me as an uke, presumably because of how I look and because people know my background, but mostly because I land softer than a card-carrying ninja and bounce back up.)

But, when I approached him, he asked me to help him stand up. He told me that because his style is so deadly, he no longer has cartilage in his knees, has 3 fused discs, two post-op immobilized shoulders, one dysfunctional elbow, arthritis in his wrists and fingers, and lockjaw. After my presentation one of the participants came over and whispered to me, "after watching what happens to people after long study of their styles, it was an easy choice to make RMAX my retirement plan."

[Glenn Sunshine]

Brandon,

Absolutely--if we train hard, the possibility for injury is there, and that may in fact be one of the more important elements of training psychologically. If I know that if I do something in a sloppy or careless way, my training partner or I could be hurt, I'll be a lot more focused. But if EVERY black belt had those injuries, it suggests that it wasn't simply a "possibility," but irrational training methods.

Scott,

Yeow. That is scary.

[Scott Sonnon]

Glenn, I met Dan Chomycia there when he first began training with me. One of the grandmasters asked to use him as an uke and to demonstrate the "deadliness" of his style dislocated Dan's thumb, not once but TWICE. :x That was the end of my affable nature. Respect is a given; it's disrespect which is earned.

[maxmoon]

i know this is off topic! but here is a good example of a crazy martial arts teacher! not sure why no body put a stop to his abuse :evil:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/videos/kungfuteacher.html

sorry if off topic!

max

[Paul Keith]

I personally don't advocate government regulation of the content of the style, I just think that it would be a good idea for current and potential instructors to have basic knowledge of excercise phisiology. Nearly all certifying bodies NSCA, ACE, etc. require a cpr/aed cert. as a pre-requisite, many MA instructors don't even have that.
the philosophy of let the buyer beware is great in most instances but MA has such a shroud of mystry <read here bull, that most people (at least the ones I know) have all had at least one horror story from an instructor, the lucky ones aren't permenently injured and somehow have not been discouraged from training.
every time I hear stories like these I think of how little credibility martial arts has as a sport in the eyes of the public.

[Glenn Sunshine]

I'm first and foremost a scholar. My martial arts has always been a secondary pursuit for me. I've also never been the type who wanted to be a tough guy or compete in tournaments. As a result, the schools I've trained in have tended to be less macho in orientation, particularly the ones I've spent more time in. But I can tell you that academics tend not to look on most martial arts highly except to the degree that they represent cultural tradition, and there it's primarily the internal Chinese arts that can get the easiest hearing. The kind of posturing and frank abuse described here really limits martial arts' credibility, not just with the general public who typically don't know any better, but especially with the academic community. I'm not sure that matters a lot here--academics don't have the best reputation themselves (and yes, disrespect is earned in this case too!)--but it is I think indicative of how the more thoughtful people outside the martial arts environment tend to view things. And that includes people like sports enthusiasts and commentators.

[Connie Brown]

ranging a bit far afield - but speaking of looking askance at sports, seems like any sport that deals with the application of force and power, can either go healthy or go nutty berserk.

Whether it's football, or powerlifting, or whatever. I like to watch WSM (I know, I know) and there was a guy who popped his bicep live. On the one hand I thought, what kind of sport is that, and on the other, I thought, well natch when the whole point is max effort, sometimes you hit the limit.

That's another reason I like RMAX. It's supported to go hard, but also to know what limits are, via intuitive training. You don't just shut your eyes, irradiate, and go ooof.

[Coach Jones]

That's another reason I like RMAX. It's supported to go hard, but also to know what limits are, via intuitive training. You don't just shut your eyes, irradiate, and go ooof.

Words of wisdom, Connie, :lol:

[JasonE]

I could go on for a long while about MA-related injuries I've had. Some have been my own fault, others were directly related to the action/inaction of instructors. In any case, it leaves me wanting to see a change. I don't want to see regulation of MA content, but I would like to see some type of basic teaching requirements established. These would address simple things like CPR/AED/First Aid cert, PNF/AIS stretching cert, adaptive instruction methods, and a minimum age requirement.

I can see it offered as a weekend certification, provided the candidates have an opportunity to study curriculum materials prior to attending. Certification would require practical demonstrations of competence. This certification would be open to anyone meeting the minimum age requirement for instructors (regardless of current rank), and would be required of any MA instructor, club leader, or assistant/acting instructor. Though a national standard is highly unlikely, there is nothing stopping municipalities or MA organizations from establishing such requirements.

MA training does come with risk and the intelligent participant recognizes and accepts that. Though the rule of "buyer beware" remains in effect, it is incumbent upon us to dream of and (in our various ways) strive for a higher standard, in hopes that others will be emboldened to follow.

[gene]

i'd like to say that a lot of people confuse pain with injury...id also like to say that injurying uke is wrong wrong wrong...when people offer to let you demonstrate some priciple using their body you should take care of it.

i also must say that i tell people straight out...martial arts isnt chess...you will get hurt from time to time, hopefully not injured but definitely some pain

i also think that as the one of the number one killers in america we have stress related heart disease...martial art should make you healthy

peace
gene

[Glenn Sunshine]

i also think that as the one of the number one killers in america we have stress related heart disease...martial art should make you healthy

I have to say, sparring (which scared me at first) may have been the best thing I've ever done for stress. After being kicked, punched, thrown, choked, etc., by pros who really weren't holding back, nothing I faced at work or in the rest of my life was particularly intimidating--it wasn't going to hurt more than getting hit, and I survived that with no injuries. Instant stress reduction!

[Coach Jones]

I heard that! Nothing will put the stress in your life into perspective quite like a little friendly sparring. :lol:

and i'll even take it a step further...

The closest I believe i'll ever come to enlightenment was the first time I got KO'd. :lol:

I remember clearly, as I lay there on the floor looking up at the lights, a feeling of absolute clarity. All the stresses and problems I was having washed away and the only worry left was if I was ok. When I realized that I was fine, the 2 or 3 seconds that I layed there before the helper monkeys stood me up, were absolute bliss. :lol:

Now that may sound insane, but it's the god's honest truth. While I only had that intense of an experience with it once, it was an experience I wouldn't trade, although now I do prefer to be on the other end. helping others get closer to Nirvana through the medium of friendly contact. :lol:

[Scott Sonnon]

:lol:

[Ryan Murdock]

:lol: :lol:

[KD Jones]

i'd like to say that a lot of people confuse pain with injury...


I remember clearly, as I lay there on the floor looking up at the lights, a feeling of absolute clarity.

This started to become clear to me, just in the past 2 weeks. It isn't pain that concerns me in MA work, it really is injury. I found it only because suddenly - though it had always been true - that I didn't freak out as much, say, during a painful strike to the shoulder from the side as I would during an equally (or less) painful strike to the knee.

Especially with kids and a wife, there's a certain imperative not to get frivoulously injured. But I'm really hoping for more clarity about drawing the line that Gene mentions... while still understanding that some, hopefully very rare circumstances make it necessary not to be concerned about he loss of a joint, or a limb, or one's life...

Coach Jones, do you think that may be part of the clarity, that the ego and the being become disentangled by that deep un-weaving of fear and true, visceral threat?

[Coach Jones]

Coach Jones, do you think that may be part of the clarity, that the ego and the being become disentangled by that deep un-weaving of fear and true, visceral threat?

Definitely! In that moment where all of the things you were afriad of happening, happen, you realize that you're still there. You're ok. You looked the monster in the face and....nothing happened. :lol:

It's like the moment, as a child, where you really and truly grasp that there aren't monsters under your bed.

Nowadays,we look down on all things that could be described as violence, and allow our impressions, emotions and predjudices to take over.

Boxing, for example for quite a while now has been under the gun and participation in this great sport has dwindled from what it once was. This happened due to a perception that it's dangerous and that you'll end up with brain damage.

While there is some danger in boxing. It still ranks, according to numerous studies, not even if the top 20 for serious injuries when it comes to amateur sports. Football is by far king, but because we cover up the athletes and watch the game from a distance we are able to remove much of the human factor from the "violence" on the field. In boxing, we look the athlete in the eyes and watch at close range, seeing the "violence" firsthand. When it comes to specifically brain injuries boxing doesn't even enter the top 5.

Just realized i've wandered off topic...oops :P :roll:

[Chuck Kechter]

...although now I do prefer to be on the other end. helping others get closer to Nirvana through the medium of friendly contact.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I am with you there!

Brandon, I want to say I've REALLY been enjoying both the quality AND quantity of your posts lately!

Great stuff!

[Scott Sonnon]

Brandon, I want to say I've REALLY been enjoying both the quality AND quantity of your posts lately!
Great stuff!
Ditto that!

[gene]

i had a woman come and ask me to teach her some chi kung...i told her i didnt teach and she asked me who i thought would...she said she wanted something more meditative than yoga so I suggested boxing...she thought i was being a dick when in fact i was being honest....

I too experience a clarity when a fist is flying towards my face or a choke is sunk in nice and deep...people think i like getting choked out(maybe Im not very good:)) but it is those moments... that make more sense to me than anything else

peace
gene

[Scott Sonnon]

There's science (biochemistry and psychoneuroimmunology) to back what you two have discussed from your personal anecdotes. More research is still underway that hasn't hit the public yet.

[Coach Jones]

Chuck & Coach,

Thanks a lot! It's all a result a believe of really diving in full force into research and development as well as continued deepening of my personal practice. RMAX in a nutshell. Hopefully, there's a lot more to come. :lol:

Gene,

You're so right. That feeling is, in my mind what it's all about. That pure honest moment where there are no questions, answers or fears is what few "fight fans" will ever experience, but those who step up and face their fears (whatever those are) live for. For most the big fear is losing, but once you realize that only through losing do you learn - or better yet - reframing the idea of losing to mean learning, it becomes not something to fear but something to be welcomed and even enjoyed.

[KD Jones]

There's science (biochemistry and psychoneuroimmunology) ... still underway that hasn't hit the public yet.

Will you please keep us posted on this?

And, as an aside... in the most Noevember 2005 Scientific American, there's an article titled "The Neurobiology of the Self." One of the things that is mentioned is the way the brain differentiates self and non-self. Seems simple at a high level...

One test subject discussed had a peculiar reaction to seeing another person being touched... there was greater general brain activity than "normal" subjects, and a brain region called the anterior insula became active, which did not occur in "normal" subjects.

This person, whenever she saw another person being touched, felt the touch in the identical place on her own body. (Don't let's get humorous with this...) And she was, as an adult, quite surprised to learn that everyone did not have this response.

I couldn't help thinking that she couldn't be the only one. And that there may be a continuum of effect. And that this might be another one of those things that gets - very confusingly - explained in terms of "action at a distance" and other bizarre phenomena...

I also couldn't help wondering how quickly and deeply a heavily trained martial artist might learn if this were on of their traits - having everything occur inside them.

Maybe theoretical nonsense, or maybe at some level there is an application...