Heavy Bag Training

[Adam Steer]

Hi,

I am just getting back into MA. Although I am constantly on the lookout for a training partner, I am on my own for the moment. One thing I really enjoy is working out on my heavy bag. A have a 90 lb bag and usually do rounds mixed in with some light energy system work in between.

At some point in the future I will be purchasing the Softwork DVD. For now I am playing with some of the preview clips of the Hardwork DVD (the one on structural striking and the one on the right cross) and trying to figure them out on the bag with at least some success I think. That one short clip on the right cross has opened my eyes to a lot of answers...

Anyhow, my question is this. Do any of you use a heavy bag, and if so do you have any tips for working it into the CST training philosophy?

Cheers,
Adam

[Coach Jones]

Adam,

I love my heavy bag. Use it all the time. Down the pike there might just be something coming out that discusses this in great detail.

For now, i'd recommend playing around, experimenting. Use it to develop attributes and not think of it as a skill developer. Even if you ARE using it for attribute development, I still recommend strongly that you pick up Intu FLow if you already haven't.

It's been said before, but that's the key. In my opinion, working the heavy bag without first takin gthe steps to increase and refine your range of motion is putting the cart before the horse. It may seem like it's an extra step, but it'll get you where you want to be faster.

Good luck,

[Adam Steer]

Hi Coach Jones,

Thanks for the reply. I have ordered Warrior Wellness and pre-ordered the FlowFit dvd. Will this do the trick?

Thanks,
Adam

[Coach Jones]

Absolutely, my friend. That is the key. Once you increase your range of motion, you open up a myriad of possibilities with regard to power and speed that you wouldn't have access to before. You're on the right track!

[Robert V]

No one may believe me, but my punching power increased without the heavy bag. I took about a two years off from heavy bag training and focused more on WW. I came back to hitting the bag...and people, and I found my power had increase.

It was because I trained my body to use my energy and strength more efficiently. Also, my body learn the most effective manner to recruit joints. Lastly, my "core activation" became more of a generator of power.

[KD Jones]

Coach Jones -

Can you, without a great expenditure of time, say more about using the bag for "attributes" rather then "skill development."

I don't fully grasp what you're saying, but I feel something large in it...

Blessings.

[Coach Jones]

Sure...

What you see most with regard to heavy bag training is folks standing as though their feet are buried in quicksand as they work their pre-programmed combinations against the bag. Sometimes you'll get people who will throw in a bit of footwork and visualization while throwing their pre-programmed combinations. And rarely, you'll see people moving around the bag and actually "working it" going through a battery of offensive and defensive tactics while working angles and being more dynamic. While the latter is best, the best increases in tactical performace don't come from the heavy bag, they come from working with a flesh and blood training partner or better yet, coach.

To get the most out of your heavy bag work. Remember the idea of "stimulate not simulate". Work your breathing, movement and structure as you apply force to the bag. Your performance goal should never be looking cool, or mirroring what you saw in the last Rocky film.

As an example, look at a jab. There are dozens of ways to throw a jab, probing, standing, stiff, flicking, pawing, etc etc. etc. You can work a jab against a heavy bag with a variety of performance goals. Do it with one goal at a time.

Breathing, structure, movement - as always.

[Scott Sonnon]

Brandon, I can't wait for your announcement of what's coming after RMAX Powered IMA. :twisted:

[Coach Jones]

Me neither!! :twisted: :wink:

[Coach Flanagan]

Same Here 8) :D

[cbeltrante]

Another wait and see?? :x

You guys are toooooooo much!!!! :)

[Robert V]

I second that! Great post.

[Brett Jacques]

I am not a fan of heavy bag work for the novice and beginner. Too many times I've seen athletes trying to move the bag ruining the mechanics of the strike they are practicing. I believe in a progession of bags: very light to heavy so that attributes are not compromised just to move the bag.

[Scott Sonnon]

When preparing for my San Shou competition, I used swinging bags to work on my footwork, then added on timing of striking and kicking, then added on timing of entering to throws. This was not from a technical perspective, as I was not working on increasing power in my strikes, but merely giving myself a SPP mobility workout session during the recovery periods between when I was sparring and when I was conditioning. Improvising fluidity during tactical mobility is what I consider to be the single highest premium "attribute".

Personally, I'm much more interested in how the bag moves (swings) than in how much I move the bag (power generation). In the past, I've done this with several swinging dufflebags.

[Coach Jones]

Improvising fluidity during tactical mobility is what I consider to be the single highest premium "attribute".

Personally, I'm much more interested in how the bag moves (swings) than in how much I move the bag (power generation). In the past, I've done this with several swinging dufflebags.

Read that again, folks!!

This is a PEARL!

Heavy bags are wonderful training tools, but moat people develop specific skills for hitting the heavy bag. That's NOT the point. The point is to use the tool to develop attributes that transfer to your game.

Brett, I mostly agree with you. What I tend to do with a beginner or novice is to have them work the bag, but without punching. I try and change their view of the bag. Most people have been so saturated by movies and TV that they have a mental "imprint" of what they should look like when working the bag, this leads to them getting the old ego involved and wanting to show you how hard they can hit it.

If I can't break someone of the habit of just trying to pund the bag, I put them on the double-end bag and that usually cures the problem! Although this tool is another one that is usually played with ridiculuously, I believe it's one of the most useful tools in the gym when used correctly.

Like Samuel Colt said, "speed and power are fine...accuracy is final." :wink:

You only have to look at someone like a Chuck Lidell to see this point dramatically illustrated. Wanna know a secret? He's not a great striker.

What he is, is very accurate. He's betting that most MMA strikers will either lack the power for their incoming strike to drop him, or that they'll miss. Most often, he's right.

The goal should be to go deeper and to understand that striking is not hitting, it's an all around coordinated movement. An amalgum of dynamic, spontaneous and tactical movement that culminates (hopefully) with the striking of the opponent. Whatever type of equipment you use in your training, this has to be understood and applied in order to get the best results.

[Scott Sonnon]

Respect.

[Adam Steer]

Thanks everyone for the thoughts on the Heavy Bag. I am definitely in the market for whatever Coach Jones might bring out on the subject...

Right now, what I am doing with the bag is pretty simple and quite fun. I am not trying to "hit hard" or "move the bag." I am trying to play with staying as relaxed as possible and hitting the bag with the least "muscular effort" possible. Let me tell you that whether I am trying to move the bag or not, its movin'... I am much better with the right at the moment so I am playing a lot with trying to reproduce the same feeling on the left. Other than that I am mostly just playing with the bag and trying to stay relaxed.

Cheers,
Adam

[Scott Sonnon]

Hips, hips, hips!!!

[KD Jones]

Man, this is deep. I just bought a new heavy bag... now I'm trying to incorporate this. Though I've never been terribly impressed with "bag pounding" this is still a bit of a shift, trying to make these ideas clear in my head.

Hopefully, there will be demonstrations of some kind, someday. Would tomorrow be too soon?

Ha. I so funny I makin me laough.

[Scott Sonnon]

KD, you're registered for the Portland Path Workshop, am I right? We'll be at a kungfu school. If I remember they have chain bags. If you want to schedule a private session, we can arrange that. Otherwise, we can try and grab 5 minutes and I'll show you how I put the bag in motion and work mobility.

[KD Jones]

(Overwhelmed.)
(Speechless.)
(Grateful.)

[stultzies9]

Ooh ooh! Can I watch?! :lol: :oops:

[Scott Sonnon]

Aaron, if it's only a few minutes to get the gist, sure of course. If it's a private session, you can discuss making arrangements with KD for a semi-private.

[stultzies9]

No problem, Coach. :D

I would never try and butt in on a private session. That would just be, well, rude. :lol:

[Doc]

Has anyone tried the free-standing "pillar" bags? I don't have a good place to hang a traditional heavy bag. So I got one of Century's pillar bags. I really like it. I find that it moves more like a live opponent. Depending on what kind of surface you have it standing on, you can get it moving around in an open space rather than swinging from the ceiling. It also moves from the top down, rather than from the bottom up...again, more like a real opponent.

[Scott Sonnon]

Keith,

I have. But I'd say it's a different mobility focus. Hanging bags allow me to focus on moving around the bag. I think that it can be harmful to view the bag as an opponent, for it can really skew the actual training value. I don't view the bag as an opponent, but as a biofeedback partner for my timing and rhythm.

The law of specific adaptation here allows us to concentrate on the specific training value of a tool, so that we don't try to use a hammer on attributes which aren't nails.

[Coach Jones]

There's nothing wrong with pillar bags at all. They're fine, but not because they move more like a real opponent. No bag does. that's the rub. The bag doesn't have attributes or skills, it responds to exactly what you do to it. That's why using it in conjunction with training partners is so very necessary. Hone your attributes with your equipment and your tactics with your training partners and you'll get the most out of your bag training.

[KD Jones]

Bag as biofeedback. Brilliant. Got right into the circuits with that one...

[Coach Simon]

I heard somewhere, I don't remember where, that we should decrease, or cut out completely, our heavy bag work due to the shock wave (impulse) causing retinal or vitreal detachment.

Since I do so much solo training, I have gone through long periods where I would do a lot of bag work. About a year-and-a-half ago I trained with a Systema group. I stopped doing bag work then. I only trained with the group for a few months, but I never resumed any bag work.

Should I start working the heavy bags again. They are just hanging there. I have a 6 foot Thai bag, A 70 lb upper-cut bag (looks like an upside down nipple), a speed bag with interchangeable sizes, a freestanding Wavemaster XXL, a top-and-bottom bag, and the Warrior (a freestanding Modified Wing-Chun Dummy).

I haven't used any of that stuff for over a year and a half. Is there a place for that equipment in my RMAX study and practice? :? How much time should be alloted to it? How hard should I hit or kick? Where should I let the force go through my body? Should I emphasize speed or force? Should I do reps of a technique, or combinations, or freebox? How do I avoid cocktailing? Should I do feet only, hands only, always combine hands and feet? With gloves, without gloves? What striking surfaces? Should I use open hands, ridge hands, knife hands, forearms, hips, chest, etc., in addition to fists, knees, elbows and feet? What principles am I working on?

Sorry for all of the questions so rapid fire. :)

I also have a 6 foot, 60 pound, Blue Man Throwing Dummy. He is the stiff kind. How should I solo drill with the Blue Man?

[Coach Jones]

Wow. That's a lot of questions. :lol:

It all depends on your training focus and goals. Personally, I use predominantly varying weights of heavy bags and double end bags. Like I said though, it all depends on your training focus. If your martially inclined, there's absolutely a place for that equipment in your training, especially if you are forced into primarily solo work. Make your top priority Intuflow, and only then start incorporating bag work.


How much time should be alloted to it? How hard should I hit or kick? Where should I let the force go through my body? Should I emphasize speed or force?

Again, this falls under intuitive training. What are your goals? What attributed do you want to work on? How much time do you have? A sfar as where you should let the force go through your body, well, that's a bit of a tough thing to get across via print. It can vary depending on your own ideosynchratic style or pre-existing movement base. In other words there will be different focuses if your coming at it from an IMA focus versus say Muay Thai, for example. The key is to work, study and explore in order to make whatever methods you're employing more efficient.

That said, I have to say this because it's a sore spot with me...

When we say "you're own ideosynchratic movement" it doesn't mean that whatever you are doing is good. It refers to not requiring a specific set of rote techniques but rather soordinating and refining your own movement making it more efficient and effective. Also, if you already briong to the table a traditional system as a base, you still need to coordinate and refine those movements because you WILL do them differently than everyone else. You are unique and this will reflect in your training. Not all systems are efficient and/or effective as a movement base. Luckily, it's not subjective. :wink: As long as we engage in honest, non-coopertive trainng from time to time, we can get a reality check any time we want. We are fortunate in that we don't have to wonder.

Like Coach S said, "...bag as biofeedback". Use it to work on whatever aspect of your game you need to work on.

[Coach Simon]

Hi Brandon. Well said. I am recording my daily training in the IOTA prep area. I have also ordered the RMAX Peak Performance Library. When it arrives I will probably get a better idea of want I want to start with. I signed up for the Flow -Flighting Athlete Seminar to give me that reality check and to get direction in my training. I am hoping that the RMAX material I ordered will help me clarify that area the way CST has helped me with my training. My old injuries aren't bothering me anymore and I am hesitant to trust myself at this stage. I'll add the bag work and post it in my log. Thank you Brandon. I look forward to training with you.

[Coach Jones]

The Flowfighting seminar will be a transformative experience I guarantee. I look forward to seeing you there. It'll be much easier and beneficial to recommend specific training advice at the seminar when we can lay eyes on ya'. :wink:

[Chris Brownless]

What would you suggest in terms of rounds or should you train on the bag and finish when your done.

I like the bit about throwing the jab certain ways as you do see people throw a jab like in a Rocky film......

I watched the fottage of Coach Sonnon on the fisticuffs link, can this be done on a bag or a hanging ball?.......

Come to think of it in shadow boxing as well?

[Coach Jones]

Chris,

How long you train on the bag is specific to what you're training for. You are always "training". With everything you do, you're tellin gyour body what you expect of it. It will respond in kind.

You should be able to do any type of striking on a bag (with the exceptions of certain angles, of course).

You could shadowbox in any way in which you care to, but other than loosening up muscles, technique specific shadowboxing has very little training value on it's own.

[Chris Brownless]

Thanks Coach.