Fighting for the real world as opposed to combat sports

[brian bailey]

I'm an active duty Air Force member and I trained in Japan in mostly Brazilian Jujitsu and practiced some focus mitt strikes (little boxing, muay thai) and sprawling. I also worked as a bouncer in an offbase bar.

My question is this:

-How does your organization or Mr. Sonnon feel about the popular "adrenal based" training like Peyton Quinn's RMCAT training? They state that striking is the only way to go (no grappling at all) for street defense not sport and that once adrenalized (like one would be in an actual attack or street situation) the human mind can only resort to gross not fine motor skills such as strikes/knees etc and not complicated arm bars, chokes, sweeps etc. They also always advocate striking first and not letting the enemy or attacker get a chance to recover.

I happen to feel that one of the biggest advantages of grappling (not that striking isn't important) is that you can train near or at 100% full power w/out strikes/foul tactics such as biting/eye gouging and spar or conduct randori on a regular basis against live resistance which is the most similiar thing to fighting all out except actually fighting.

I'm asking from a purely reality/street/or in my case Iraq encounter unarmed?

[Scott Sonnon]

Reflex based combatives approaches offer physical preparedness in the shortest time possible. No other approach can render their speed of preparing effective combatants. However, these approaches remain limited by their own basic doctrine (read "belief system"): gross motor only, platform off of "hard-wired" reflexes, striking more effective, proactive aggression superior, et cetera. Their belief system only regards their method of training. Other methods of training (Strategies) delineate from disparate belief systems (Doctrine), and as a result produce very different results (Tactics).

One can, through proper methods, learn to remain calm within crises, including combat. Fine motor actions become capable with autonomic and hormonal arousal management training. Reflexes are not hard-wired and can be brought under the control, though the current media hype and industry mythology 'markets' against this biological fact.

From a motor development perspective grappling is a much more sophisticated and much more effective educational model since one actively stimulate the learning channels of the body (called Mechanoreceptors: which sense movement, position and tension/force.) Grappling, not in the conventional 'reaction- based' model (technique/counter-technique), is the superior form of manifesting bodily awareness and refinement.

Refinement requires much longer time and training focus than conventional military preparation permits. So, to prepare Jimmy from Kentucky to walk out of the woods and head into battle with a pernicious enemy in short weeks requires a different training model - hence the industry success of reflex based systems. The same is true of law enforcement personnel who are on average allotted 10 hours of hostile subject control training per YEAR.

There are systems, such as R.O.S.S., which can produce masterful fighters, light years beyond the effectiveness of reflex based systems. But you need to consider training time, level of focus, money, et cetera… Bottom line is that most are not prepared to invest the time and hardship to become masterful.

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[brian bailey]

I feel honored first of all that you are giving me your input sir.

Next, what is meant by "reflexes are not hard wired?" How can they be improved especially in adrenalized states such as combat or emergencies?

I'm only interested in something that will work in a short amount of time either in Kuwait/Iraq or on the streets in rough neighborhoods of Long Beach not a ring. I know this is an age old question but how effective is grappling of any sort against 2-3 opponents. I really like "rolling" and doing grappling drills but how "street" is it?

What do you think briefly of Tony Blauer and Tim Larkin's stuff?

I'm willing to put in the time necessary to become "masterful" just like any skill but how would ROSS produce fighters light years beyond reflex based systems?

[Scott Sonnon]

Brian,

No action hard-wires your organism. Every behavior remains subject to the laws of conditioning. Platforming off of (and reinforcing) a reflex imposes upon the reality of the situation and thus never truly 'responds' to the event as it unfolds.

If you only have a short amount of time, then I've already made my suggestion above.

Grappling against one person on the mat, and grappling against plural weapon wielding assailants require different training approaches. The rules of engagement determine the preparatory methods.

When you have longer to train seriously feel invited to come back and begin.

[Brett Jacques]

Everyone who has trained in martial arts needs to become familiar with Coach Sonnon's responses in this thread. It doesn't get anymore succinct. Every martial culture has a progression of hard to soft wired training for example Karate to Aikido or the various "flavors" of Sambo. Unfortunately, most discover the soft wired approach due to injury or in their advancing years. Other systems believe you have to earn the right to study the soft wired by demonstrating the proficiency then understanding the limitations of the hard wired systems.

Scott's method allows you to become proficient in the soft wired method in a reasonable amount of time unlike other methods which take much longer. No doubt this is due to ROSS training and Scott's insights. As Scott said, it boils down to needs and time.

I like to phrase the choice of hard or soft this way, "You get it done or you can get it done looking good with a smile on your face." I have in my martial training focused and relished the hard wired systems. Since being introduced to the soft wired training of Russian martial arts, I prefer it.

My teaching is, for most people, technique-based but for those with the understanding and the desire to let go, I teach a combination. The combination method is far superior in my experience in this culture.

As I explore more of Coach Sonnon's methods, I think his coaching progression is very efficient. This cannot be ascertained by viewing just one video series by Scott. You need to become familiar with 3 or 4 tape series especially through repeated viewing, to see the trees and the forest. I'm sure daily training with Scott would be the best way but the tapes he has produced offer guides to improve attribute development from several standpoints.

[brian bailey]

I appreciate everybody's answer a lot! THanks.

However, some of that is mumbo jumbo to me (certain words) and an explanation in laymen's terms would help me to comprehend it better.

Also, I was wondering what you think about Krav Maga's training methodologies for my goals since I'm moving to California in a month and that's what's mostly in Long Beach is Brazilian Jujitsu and Krav Maga.

[Scott Sonnon]

Brian,

Someone with your occupational specialty shouldn't have a problem with vernacular. If you supply the terms with which you're experiencing trouble, I'll refer you to a study resource.

I'll be happy to refer you to someone in your region involved in my system, which is why I presume you are here.

[brian bailey]

I was kind of being serious and kind of being smart:) All in jest of course and respect sir.

Can you give me one or two clear/concrete examples of "soft" training as opposed to sparring?

I'll be in Long Beach in a month and yes I LOVE this forum/site.

I really really love training in position flow drills, sparring etc in brazilian jujitsu but a lot of these newer guys:Tim Larkin, etc sometimes get me confused thinking that grappling is really garbage for the streets/Iraq because Matt Furey and Pavel T both really speak highly of his seminars but I don't have $4000 for one of his seminars. BJJ sparring has giving me the most confidence for the streetfights that I have had (20) in Japan working at a bar throwing out Marines,etc because of the contact, quick ingraining of the moves even though it's a "fine motor" sill acquisition.

[brian bailey]

Currently I'm doing:
-Pistols (singles) weighted and bodyweight
-Pulllups (high rep and weighted)
-Handstand pushups (going for full Range of motion on tall stacks of books)
-sprints/vertical leap stuff (in case I'm deployed again like I was in Kuwait)
-High rep pushups/situps for Military PT tests
-snatches with a dumbell (singles)
-one arm/one leg pushups

When you are deployed sometimes you don't have access to weights or a gym plus I've been really reading a lot of Matt Furey's stuff lately.

Could I get some similiar benefits from training with baseballl bat to hit tires instead of clubbells if I'm a little short on money right now?

[Scott Sonnon]

Brian,

Read Beyond Aliveness: From Soft to Hard Work (http://www.rmax.tv/nature.html) I - IV.

No, you cannot get similar benefits to Clubbell Training from hitting a baseball bat against a tire.

[brian bailey]

Thanks. I understand. I think I had Coach Davies talking about hitting tires with bats before.

I'm reading that article you suggested right now. Fascinating!

What do you think of my other stuff I'm doing right now workout wise?

[brian bailey]

Very good stuff sir.

Just please answer this question yes or no as much as possible sir?

Do you think grappling (BJJ/sambo) has an advantage over the striking arts especially in their practice and for the streets?

[dave_rusin]

Brian,
If I may...

In ROSS we make no distinction between grappling and striking, per se, as the separation between one and the other is amorphous, especially in your venue of conflict. We all know the difference between a punch and a joint lock, for instance, but in the chaos of violent conflict (absent a rule structure as in combat sports) how do you discern when you are grappling and when striking and why would it matter. Your goal is to survive!


Regarding one of your other questions...

Assuming that one has the time and commitment to utilize a response based system such as ROSS, there are many ways in which such methodology produces masterful fighters.

ROSS is a system facilitating incremental progression and perpetual refinement of skill. Off the top of my head some of the ways in which ROSS approaches the path of self mastery are as follows:

1.) Recover full bodily articulation
2.) Address/correct Sensory Motor Amnesia (CST)
3.) Discharge Residual Muscle Tension (CST)
4.) De-condition Fear Reactivity
5.) Enhance respiratory capacity.
6.) Decrease energy expenditure through energy management
7.)Instill a gross motor pattern of movement for a foundation upon which skills can be refined.
8.) Internalize proper musculo-skeletal alignment to utilize structure over muscular effort.
9.) Increase effective efficiency while decreasing required effort.
10.) Allow for the discernment of actual versus PERCEIVED threats.
11.) Develop proprioceptive awareness of self and kinesthetic sensitivity to opponent when engaged in conflict.
12.) Develop the ability to inoculate impellent force.

The above list is by no means complete. Each item could be developed into rather lengthy discussions.

[brian bailey]

Once again I appreciate the response and expertise and I have nothing but respect for this forum so please interpret this the way it's intended to be interpreted.

I actually have a very good vocabulary and understand most of these terms but my question is:

1. Can you give me a concrete example or two how you train for total no rules combat? A type of drill, sparring,etc? I understand fighting is fighting and there are no styles etc but I'd like to hear some concrete examples.

2. I'm all about self mastery and in no way disrespecting your response but I'm only concerned with this goal: being able to survive and defend myself if attacked by 2-3 people or someone armed. Not to compete, not to have enlightenment,etc. I like practical not philosophical answers.

[Vbrown]

I know I'm late to the discussion, but if I might;

Your military career already shows that you can learn to execute any number of tasks under high stress conditions. You have learned to do things under fire that go COUNTER to the natural reaction of running rabbit at the first shot.

Time and intensity and focus at the task at hand can wire all sorts of skill at all sorts of stress levels.

One of the rarer methods of solo practise is to strongly envision that you are under constant attack. To purposefully put yourself into a near clinical state of paranoia, and then force yourself to perform. If you work at it, you can put yourself into an adrenal state at will and function there.

The down-side? You will be prone to inappropriate actions. Like punching your mother out at a suprise birthday party. I've seen it happen and the silence afterwards it the epitome of awkward.

With methods that transition between hard work and soft work allow you to do is desensitize to much of the adrenaline rush and allow the training to come forward without making you a sociopath.

As the man said, it's a longer path, but in the end it's more rewarding.

FWIW,

Vince

CST, A (who has never punched his mother, btw)

[Scott Sonnon]

Brian,

This is my online forum - for use in resource support and resource guidance. If you want physical examples, go to the instructor page and go to an instructor, or go to the video section and find a resource suiting your interests.

[brian bailey]

Sorry about that sir.

Do you have a representative in the Long Beach/Los Angeles Area who I could train with?

[Scott Sonnon]

As I wrote, see the R.O.S.S. Instructor Page (http://www.rmax.tv/schools.html).

[drewa]

I don't presume to speak for Peyton Quinn, but I've experienced a tiny bit of the RMCAT curriculum and liked it a lot. From the couple of times we've talked, I've found Peyton to be a really good guy. He's put a lot of thought into his training curriculum and the scenarios he uses. His emphasis does seem to be on striking and a few throws, not ground work. This is probably strategic but might also be because he uses the bulletman to let people practice full power strikes.

I wouldn't call it a reflex-based program, though. IMHO it's designed to get you used to operating and engaging in decision making under conditions of stress and potential violence, which are often ambiguous.

The training seems to be geared to civilian, not military, situations- the scenarios and "go-no go" rules would be totally different for a military situation.

This is not to take anything away from what Coach Sonnon and others have talked about, but RMCAT can be a good alternative if you can afford the cost. I have no experience with Tony Blauer's program, but there are obviously people here who can discuss it.

[Scott Sonnon]

Drew,

I only know what I read years ago in Quinn's book "Real Fighting" so take my comments as such.

There are three types of educational approaches in martial art. I created this distinction in order to categorize not the "style" (which is only indirectly related to how an individual teaches martial art) but the method - which is of the greatest importance. There are no secret "techniques" - only secret educational strategies. One can teach from a reaction based approach. A number of techniques are presumably rehearsed and memorized to be called upon in crisis for application.

One can teach from a reflex based approach - built upon reinforcing and positively utilizing the autonomic and hormonal arousal as a platform for counter-aggression.

One can teach from a response based approach - diminishing relative autonomic and hormonal arousal, diminishing response time, efficiency and proportionality, and increasing kinesthetic, position and force/tension sensitivity. I've used all three methods across the course of my career. It all depends upon the audience, though I have a deep preference personally for the later.

[brian bailey]

I appreciate everybody's input. Thanks!

I will check out the ROSS system more in about 4 weeks when I arrive to Long Beach CA.

What can I be doing in the meantime with only focus mitts and a willing wife?

I have tried to get training partners but being in the Air Force we are not infantry/ground troops like the Marines/Army so most people that I come into contact with have no interest in unarmed combat.
I've just been practicing strikes on focus mitts and doing some "soft" submissions practice with my wife (chokes/armbars) and position flow drills from Braziliian jujitsu such as: buck and rolls from the bottom, moving from mount to submission hold, etc.

[drewa]

There are three types of educational approaches in martial art. I created this distinction in order to categorize not the "style" (which is only indirectly related to how an individual teaches martial art) but the method - which is of the greatest importance.

Okay, I think I was just unfamiliar with your terminology.


One can teach from a reaction based approach. A number of techniques are presumably rehearsed and memorized to be called upon in crisis for application.

So this would be one-step sparring, kata, and the like, correct?


One can teach from a reflex based approach - built upon reinforcing and positively utilizing the autonomic and hormonal arousal as a platform for counter-aggression.

And this would be things like Blauer's spear, right?


One can teach from a response based approach - diminishing relative autonomic and hormonal arousal, diminishing response time, efficiency and proportionality, and increasing kinesthetic, position and force/tension sensitivity.

And this would be your approach.

I think I understand the terminology now. I would put RMCAT as sort of a mix of the second and third approaches and I'm going to have to look into your approach. I'm new to all this.

[oleg_yakimovich]

Brian,

a common characteristic of Russian hand-to-hand styles is that they
promote adapting particular style to a person vs. person-to-style adaptation.

Every student and trainer within a specific style has his own dialect because of differences in:

- pre-existing (and/or concurrently practiced) athletic and/or martial arts training

- physical characteristics (speed, power, reaction, balance, stamina, body type)

- psychological profile

- personal goals (combat sport or self defense, physical/mental development, etc.)

- injures and physical limitations

- age

- the last but not the least - actual personal fighting experiences
(that will most effectively override / filter any concepts of the practiced style if they are not in agreement with
the experience)

This profile produces a unique combination of stronger / weaker sides.
For practical purposes it is important to be able to apply principles of the system
helping to take full advantage of your strong sides and to minimize / exclude weaknesses,
or learn how to work around them.

As I leaved most of my life in Russia I had to refer my martial art training to reality
from time to time. I never had stylistic or personal loyalty sentiments to stay
with a training system which doesn't pass reality check against my own collection
of actual encounters varying from unarmed to armed (excluding guns, including improvised weapons),
one-to-one to one-to-many, many-to-many, having to protect somebody, etc.

My understanding is that as Dave Rusin stated before - objectively, there is no distinction in a real
confrontation between grappling and punching, only between what works and what doesn't in that specific
situation.

Other observations:

- One is not necessarily adrenaline flooded. I am, but only when the situation is unfolding.
When kicks and punches start flying I feel pretty distant, no personal feelings, seeing things happening rather slow.
I've seen both the adrenaline-driven type (may be 70-80 percent) and the "cold-fusion" types. Of the first group less then half
managed to use the state to their advantage - I guess this is the type most appropriate for the SPEAR kind of system.
Others were just stunned by the sudden change in their "chemistry".
Of the second group less then half were kind of too "amorphous" for reality.
(See FLOW FIGHTING series for more on the subject of achieving optimal combat state)

- Gross motor, pro-aggressive tactics (most often punching dominated) work in majority of cases - given
it's applied against little motivated, inexperienced fighter(s) which tend to freeze and receive an avalanche of punches
on one spot. They also work against "feminine" wanna-be-fighters sensitive to superficial facial damages.

- They can turn into a disaster against a motivated (especially armed) fighter having strong combat attributes multiplied by sound tactics;
even worse against a pack trained to cooperate in the fight. These tactics are too linear, predictable and can make you an easy target and infuriate your opponents.
They also look ugly legal wise.

- If you are cool enough your "internal target acquisition system" will estimate relative danger of the opponents
and you'll start working with them in that order, proportionally to the individual threats, in a loop. Don't focus on one attacker for long.

- You should train to keep mobile - either standing or on the ground - and in between - that's were your grappling should give you an advantage
With multiple attackers you can be practically sure to get on the ground at a moment.
(see Plural Assailant Engagements series. There, also - how to use your opponents as a virtual shield - that works, too.)

- You should to deal with the fact you are going to be hit (see Shock-Ability)

- Number of participants can drastically vary - in your favor or against; that's sometimes a good check of your friendship

- Even if both parties are punching oriented, a clinch happens in about half of situations. If you are a grappler you immediately
getting a great advantage.

- I've seen successfully applied hip throws, back and from leg trips, leg take-downs and was personally quite successful
with application of back and front leg trips more than once;
practically always the opponent gets stunned on hitting the asphalt.
The impact of the ground being heavier than most of punches, especially for a non-grappler. So here, again
you would have an immediate advantage.

- Mount and guard kept any longer that a few seconds can become a disaster - both for a person on top on one
one the ground (once seen a solid Sambo practitioner easily mounting
and pounding much lighter opponent and being finally knocked out by a piece of brick to the head).

- A confrontation can be (and, in military - most often than not) preceded (or followed by) by a strenuous physical effort
(running, obstacle negotiation, carrying wounded, etc.)

- It's safer to assume the weapons are somewhere around. They can be produced before (for moral suppression),
as the situation escalates, or emerge as improvised or (luckily) never - but even then, remaining in pockets
or sheath they are factors to affect the situation. You can't continue working on a choke knowing something like
knife seemed to be in the guy's pocket

Gee, I’ve written a lot, more than usual, but the subject deserves it. I promise to write separately an example of a training routine I actually follow when training with my students to cover the aspects above. But first, Scotts article at: http://www.rmax.tv/nature.html
Is for sure a pre-requisite. ROSS methodology of progressing from static – to dynamic drills and from them – to Soft and Hard Work is the cornerstone of success in making your personal style effective in reality.

Keep strong.

[Scott Sonnon]

One can teach from a reaction based approach. A number of techniques are presumably rehearsed and memorized to be called upon in crisis for application. So this would be one-step sparring, kata, and the like, correct? Most martial arts are taught in this way, even most Sambo/SOMBO, Judo, BJJ and MMA/NHB.


One can teach from a reflex based approach - built upon reinforcing and positively utilizing the autonomic and hormonal arousal as a platform for counter-aggression. And this would be things like Blauer's spear, right? All so-called "adrenaline-based/reality-based" systems are based on this. Any approach deliberately activating in training and platforming off of the endocrine (adrenaline/epinephrine, norepinephrine, endorphine, aldosterone "dump" - deactivated by cortisol) are reflex-based systems. These systems seek to convert the 'fight, flight or freeze' reflex to a few select gross motor, high percentage 'techniques'.


One can teach from a response based approach - diminishing relative autonomic and hormonal arousal, diminishing response time, efficiency and proportionality, and increasing kinesthetic, position and force/tension sensitivity. And this would be your approach. I think I understand the terminology now. I would put RMCAT as sort of a mix of the second and third approaches and I'm going to have to look into your approach. I'm new to all this. Yes, I teach a technique-free response-based educational model, but from what I have read in Quinn's book years ago, I doubt RMCAT utilizes this since his system teaches rote techniques. A response-based model does not and cannot use rote technique. This is why all of my materials teach you HOW to create technique spontaneously and appropriate to the resolution of the current event as it unfolds. Thus it requires more intensive study than reaction-based and reflex-based methods.

I also coordinate these approaches with the following analogy:--> Reaction-based approaches are context-specific.
--> Reflex-based approaches are context-free.
--> Response-based approaches are context-sensitive.

[brian bailey]

Great stuff once again.

No matter how much anyone trains there's always going to be "holes" in your training because you can't possibly prepare for every single scenario in the world.

This might be a stupid statement or arrogant but just being honest: If ROSS system is so much superior to everyone else's then how come ROSS isn't dominating the UFC's/Pride's from a combat sport perspective?

[Scott Sonnon]

Brian,

I believe you have come to the wrong place. Goodbye.

[Robert V]

Sir,

I currently train in "combatives", every once in a while, with a group of LEOs. We are all in our late 30s or mid-40s. We have been around the block in martial arts styles. We train for "real purpose", not as a hobby. I'm not an LEO, but I'm a former sergeant in the Army and now a teacher and I've been a bouncer for almost 15 years.

We are all JKD based, but now we have only one style...our own. We use some concepts and drills by Blauer, Matt Thorton, Tony Cecchine, Peyton and I've recently brought in the ROSS concept into our training. Mostly, we "create" our own drills.

We basically work from soft to hard in our scenario based combative drills as well as in our clinching(with and without striking) and in our groundfighting and grappling.

This means we usually begin with one person being passive and cooperative, both being passive and cooperative, alternating tactical opportunities, then we move to one person being semi-passive(resisting 50%), then we go into a harder more symmetrical session where we are both 100% committed. We do this with one or even multiple attackers.

Our goal in the multiple attack situation is more "toughness" training. Not to "win", but to analyze our responses in decrease our mistakes and response or recovery time.

Sometimes, we only narrow our tools, techniques or tactics down to only to one or a couple or even three.

For instance, my favorite drill, is from the 2 on 1 position. One person gets the two on one. His goal is to take down his partner. But, the partner has a boxing glove on his free hand and his goal is to "knock the crap" out of the guy who has the two on one.

The first stage is refining the technique of the 2 on 1. The next stage is just working on getting the two on one from the clinch or a strike(moving from soft to hard work). The following stage is just holding "control" with the 2 on 1. The next stage is either getting behind or taking the opponent down from the two on one or getting a submission(front choke or shoulder lock). The final stage is "live" with the boxing glove.

What the pure sportive type grappling or clinch work does for us is give use "toughness" and allow us to "make mistakes" to we can learn to decrease the time recovering from when we make those mistakes, moving from tactic to tactic.

Practicing softly in grappling allows us to refine our tactics and the hard work helps us in our "responses" to differnent situations. It takes years to make those responses "you".

Bruce Lee use to say "I don't hit...IT hits!" That being your body makes the correct choice or response in a given situation.

For instance, I promise you that if you suddenly grabbed me from behind, "my body" would immediately respond with a drop in levels, then either a basic wrestler's switch, rolling knee-bar or top wrist lock. Why? Because I've been in that situation so many times that my body knows the most appropriate way to respond. That only comes with 100s of hours and years. My body would also know "not to" do the rolling kneebar in a crowded club or on against multiple attackers.

When I'm in a situation at a club and I've gone through the stages of awareness(if I have that luxury), I then empty myself of everything but the confidence I will respond in the correct manner. But that only comes with training.

In the old Chinese military, they use to train in combative sports(like wrestling) during peace time(mostly for toughness and conditioning) and during war time they would train more combatives(more softly).

What can you do alone?

Grappler's Tool Box, Bodyflow and/or Leg Fencing Top Tool conditioning, sprinting uphill, swimming. Study the general concepts and tactical on video. Not watch, but study and analyze. Find any type of sportive school(wrestling, submission, Judo, BJJ, sambo, boxing, kickboxing..) In a real situations, your "style" isn't as as important as your "toughness" and you can get that from any of the above. Toughness comes either from your training method or just naturally(growing up fighting in the "streets").

Conditioning and enhance movement abilities will carry you a long way.

I hope this helps.

Robert

[Chuck Kechter]

Brian,

I should just follow Coach Sonnon's lead and let this alone. . . but, I have a minute, so what the hell. . .

In my opinion, you've missed some crucial information presented here, from several forum members as well as by Coach Sonnon, and OlegYakimovich.

Rather than trying to learn from all the information presented you seem intent on sharing your opinion of what you "think" all of this "should" look like.

You wrote:
"No matter how much anyone trains there's always going to be "holes" in your training because you can't possibly prepare for every single scenario in the world."

Go back and read what Coach Sonnon wrote about contextual training. The answer to what you wrote is presented there. I don't mean to be rude, but critical thinking is a must.

"This might be a stupid statement or arrogant but just being honest: If ROSS system is so much superior to everyone else's then how come ROSS isn't dominating the UFC's/Pride's from a combat sport perspective?"

You're begging a lot of questions with this. . . For example does the ROSS practitioner want to compete in MMA? Or compete at any level? That's just two off the top.

But really what you are looking for is much DEEPER than that.

I could teach you to box in a handful of months, if you were dedicated and had some rudimentary athleticism. You would be efficacious, but maybe not the most efficient performer in that arena. Coach Sonnon could probably teach you rote Sambo, as could Coach Yakimovich, and again probably in a few months you could perfrom that skill set in a relatively efficacious manner. But you would hardly be the most efficient you could be (No need to argue it--I can guarantee it). Nor would you truely understand your OWN game, and how your mind/body connection predisposes you to certain thought/emotive/movement patterns, et cetera--especially while under stress. This is one of the things that ROSS excels at. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.
That is one reason why Coach Sonnon wrote that it takes a more intensive study than a lot of other systems out there. Not only are you studying ROSS, but you are also (especially) studying yourself--through ROSS. Three very inter-depedant things.

And just for edification--I am not an "official" member of the ROSS group (I consider myself a ROSS practitioner. I am not a ROSS coach). I daily use Coach Sonnon's technologies.

I have been into combat athletics for over thirty years, winning over 90% of my bouts/matches in four different combat sports (all amatuer), and I can say that ROSS (and CST) have GREATLY improved both my efficiency, as well as my efficacy.

I hope that this'll help.

Good luck.

Chuck

[Vbrown]

What Chuck said.

Vince

[Monkey]

Why is it the best answers are promoted by the worst questions?


Coach Yakimovich looking forward to seeing your training agenda.

ATB

Monkey

[Jarlo Ilano]

I agree totally. Though prompted by what is most likely, a less than genuine agenda, the posts following are some of the best I have read here.

The quality of information on this forum continues to amaze me. I always look forward to more.

thanks again to all for their contributions.

jarlo

[JasonE]

This thread goes right to my heart. After years of crosstraining striking and grappling, I became very concerned about the "Adrenal-Response" approach to crash-course self-defense.

The science sounded pretty good, and after reviewing material by Sanford Strong, Gavin DeBecker, and Peyton Quinn (and having many email exchanges with him)... I was beginning to wonder why my prior training had never really explored this emotionally distorted state that people tend to enter when in a real conflict.

I had already seen many many guys that were great in the dojo fold up like children when taken out of their element, while others did just fine. What was the missing component?

Last year I jumped and took the Men's Course with Bay Area Model Muggers, one of the larger and more successful programs that I could find. This course was being taught in two 12-hour days on a weekend, and I really wondered what they would be able to accomplish. Most of the participants had no prior experience with martial arts and little confidence in their own physicality. One carried a gun as his primary self-d. None had the training I had.

The trainers were very good, and they did a great job of getting into the psychology of each person, working to build the strengths to overwrite the weaknesses. By the end of the first day, they had showed a few simple strategies for setting and maintaining boundaries, some awareness and avoidance strategies, and a few simple movements that were reasonably intelligent and adaptable to a number of situations.

There was no rocket science.

By the end of the second day, everyone was hitting full-power with confidence, and no one was freezing up. Each person had a scenario that was custom-designed to put their biggest hot-buttons, and several reenacted abusive events from their past. One guy that had psycho-somatic issues associated with a prior event no longer had them. The most timid guys were hitting with incredible commitment, and overall I think it was a pretty remarkable turnaround, considering where they had all started the day before.

For myself, I found that it was hard to move with the same coordination and accuracy I was accustomed to when they first started getting me adrenalized. However, my prior training allowed me to quickly correct this and start using higher level skills. At full intensity, I was able to transition directly from being tackled into omoplata, get to my feet, and start driving knees home without losing track of my surroundings.

I think that well-rounded training should include components of both standard training and adrenal response methodology to overcome emotional inhibitors at the moment of action.

Jason E

[Scott Sonnon]

Jason,

Just remember that these terms can be confusing. "Adrenal-Response" (actually the correct term is neuroendocrine response, but people are fascinated by adrenaline) refers to that hormonal arousal elicited by the autonomic arousal which comes "reflexively" from perception of a threat. In other words, the so-called "adrenal dump" method is the Reflex-based approach to martial art.

The problem with sustained or repeated exposure to the reflex-based approach is the same one faced by those enduring heightened elevations of trauma - whether in the trench, on patrol, in abusive relationships, or chemical imbalance: Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. Chronic maximal elicitation of the neuroendocrine response is harmful to us in the long-run, despite incredible performance gains in the short to near term. It's a biological gift which we can only accept repeatedly with harm to ourselves. So basically, if you're headed out on the battlefield in a few weeks, then the lesser of two evils is fast-hard exposure to emotionally acclimate to combat's chaos in order to survive. However, if danger is not TRULY imminent, and you do not face extreme urgency, then the Response-based approach is obviously preferable.

The Response-based approach minimizes the negative impact of hormonal performance enhancers and maximizes the sensory accuracy of the event. In other words, over time one can through proper conditioning modulate a slow-release rather than the dump of this biochemical cocktail into one's bloodstream. A slow-release is much more rapidly absorbed and does not impede refined performance. To state it plainly, through the response-based approach one can become an eye in the storm of crises.

Unfortunately, if people cannot understand or see development immediately, either the people who do demonstrate mastery are flukes or fakes, and these people leave to more commercially 'forgiving' shores - offering them them rapid-turnover performance results (regardless of the cost, and the regardless of the low-ceiling on their development.) This is sad because everyone could reclaim their self-mastery if it were not for the ego's resistance to letting go of the need for the illusion of controlling combative engagements.

[JasonE]

For people that don't have the time or commitment for serious long-term training with people that can really prepare them, I think the adrenal-response courses are generally a whole lot better than nothing, because they at least learn that they will always have a choice, and don't always have to do what others expect them to.

For those who have the time and commitment for real training, I think the adrenal courses tap into a level of emotional involvement that most of us will never get in the dojo, ring, or tournament. Experiencing this emotional component is enlightening and can add a new depth to the way you train.

That being said, I have a question for Coach Sonnon:
I've been looking at some of your books and some Grapplers Toolbox tapes my buddy has, and now your chat groups. It seems to me that the central key concept to your philosophies is Integration, the process of combining in order to produce synergistic relationships to enhance the ability to achieve results. Please tell me if I'm on target or am I heading off the track in believing this?

[Scott Sonnon]

Jason,

Performing "Hard-Work" Dynamic Drills periodically for those not willing/able to work Incremental Progression through Response-based/technique-less approaches definitely offers effectiveness in short-duration. I wrote as such early on. I spoke above to the deleterious effects of sustained or prolonged exposure to such.

To those who have time/funds/opportunity, in short-order you'll be an effective fighter. So then what? What comes after effectiveness?

Yes, you're on target with the synergistic effect of intergration.

[drewa]

The problem with sustained or repeated exposure to the reflex-based approach is the same one faced by those enduring heightened elevations of trauma - whether in the trench, on patrol, in abusive relationships, or chemical imbalance: Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder.
Are people who train in these systems at risk for developing PTSD?

[Vbrown]

If not PTSD, then something that looks very much like it.

The folks that I know that have cultivated this type of training are very hard men. But they "switch on" very easily and at inapproprate times. They tend to lead relatively isolated lives and work in a violent environment so they have SOME kind of release.

They spent years working on being on the verge of an adrenaline dump 24/7 and it shows. Tough guys to party with. But on the upside, there isn't a bar in the world I wouldn't go into if I have 2 or 3 of them with me. :twisted:

FWIW,

Vince

[MonkeySlap]

I'd like to respectively point out that coach Sonnen missed a fourth important training method.

It is where you spend years waving your arms around in the air, mimicking an instructor, getting nothing explained, no true contact drills or sparring. You learn to fight from Psychic Osmosis over time. Or as I prefer to call it: Psychosis.

But seriously, I've seen the effects of a life-time of adrenal response training in others - and it has significant drawbacks. My early training was in Judo - and after a while it dawned on me that there was a benefit to that pre-class / post class meditation. I simply don't get excited when I fight. Staying in the zone rather than freaking if you will. Coach Sonnen is the first person I have come across in the ma world (and I've known a lot a crazy people) to systematically organize a consistent, repeatable methodology for repeating this effect - something that was spotty as far as consistently occurring in students in the past. This is the exciting thing about the methodology Coach Sonnen is offering up - like any good Westerner, he identifies prime movers in objectives, and puts the light of logic on them.

Finally, if you are looking to overcome the 'adrenal' response, business school teaches three methods: Bounce, Blow, and Bang. You can bounce a little, blow out some air, or slap yourself a bit.

Ironically you can find these ideas in MA around the world, but the most comprehensive teaching I'd seen until now was in MBA school. Go figure.

[Monkey]

Coach Yakimovich

Please could you post up the training agend you mentionied in this thread... :lol:


ATB

Monkey

[Mike]

Here's my take on the whole thing, however I am by no means an authority on the subject I thought I'd give some input. I trained for a few years in some traditional martial arts (Choy Lay Fut, Aikido, Tae Kwon Do) as a teenager. When NHB came into light I was fascinated with grappling arts but never really pursued them, after a while my passion for Martial Arts dissipated until a few months ago when I started working in a bad part of town. As I was confronted everyday by every sort of trouble maker under the sun I began to fall victim to what I thought was fear.

Enter, Reality Based Self Defense. Authors like Geoff Thompson and Richard Dimitri taught me A LOT about confrontation psychology and adrenal response. Now I know that when I'm approached by an aggressive assailant the change in my body chemistry is the result of the so called "adrenal dump!" It just so happens that most people interpret this dump as "fear!" I know this now, but does it change how I feel or act or think during confrontation? Not ONE BIT!!! I can easily tell myself now that what I experience is just an adrenal response, but in the heat of the moment, I never think about that. In fact, in the heat of the moment all I know is FEAR!!! I think it's because I suffer from "What If?" syndrome! I'm always thinking, "What if he hits me? What if he stabs me? What if he has a friend? What if I hit him and nothing happens? What if I hit him and he gets more aggressive? What if he KILLS me?" It's because of this thinking that I seem to be at a heightened state of arousal at all times. Now I've never hit my mother at a suprise birthday party, but I've definitely jumped a bit.

It's because of this that I think the most important aspect of street combatives will always be adrenal manipulation and controlled thinking. I would take these skills over ANY physical attribute(s) and ability. Unfortunately, I think this has a lot to do with personality and how we are brought up (conditioning). I was brought up mostly by my paranoid, overprotective mother and I can honeslty say that a lot of my thinking is a result of her influence. I've known this for the better part of 6 years and I'm still no where near to figuring it out!

[Scott Sonnon]

Mike,


the most important aspect of street combatives will always be adrenal manipulation and controlled thinking.
How do you see this statement in regards to this article: Breath before Emotion (http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1416&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=) and this: The Myth of the Flinch Reflex (http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/21/sonnon2.html)?

[Mike]

Mike,


the most important aspect of street combatives will always be adrenal manipulation and controlled thinking.
How do you see this statement in regards to this article: Breath before Emotion (http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1416&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=) and this: The Myth of the Flinch Reflex (http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/21/sonnon2.html)?

I've read both of those as well as Body-Flow. They gave me some major insight as to how to handle fear etc, but I still have problems that I have to work through. Lack of experience probably is a major part of this though!

[ChrisY]

One can teach from a response based approach - diminishing relative autonomic and hormonal arousal, diminishing response time, efficiency and proportionality, and increasing kinesthetic, position and force/tension sensitivity.[/list] I've used all three methods across the course of my career. It all depends upon the audience, though I have a deep preference personally for the later.

Dear Coach Scott and other RMAX coaches

Is the response-based approach taught in RMAX the same as that taught (or at least introduced) in the Softwork DVD series? Where else where I can find out more about this approach.

By the way, all the links posted by Coach Scott lead to a 404 error page - is there any other way I can read those articles he had linked to? Thanks a lot

[Scott Sonnon]

Chris,

I've taken most of my prior work offline to the vault since beginning to consult for government agencies. I suggest that you begin by getting yourself to a TACFIT certification, as this serves as the foundation to the defensive tactics and combatives wing. To answer your specific question, reflex based programs of instruction are necessary for those unable or unwilling to invest more than a few hours in the POI; reaction-based for those able to invest a few months to couple years; response based is optimal for those who commit to professional training over a lifetime.

[ChrisY]

Thank you, Coach Scott. I apologise for not replying earlier as I had some issues with logging-in. I practice the Chinese internal arts and so am most interested in the response-based programs. I think CST, in particular, Flow Fighting, brings principle-based learning in the martial arts to a different league altogether, hence my interest.