Fighting "Without" Fighting!

[Robert V]

When I was in my early twenties, I believed in a "fighting art" I called "Strongman-do". I believed that by making every part of your body as strong as possible, coupled with basic grappling and striking, I could be the "Ultimate Warrior".

This concept was not even erased when I went to my first BJJ class. I had only basic wrestling skills and I was very powerful, for I lived in the gym crucifying my joints with the heaviest weight possible in every exercise. The school was a JKD school that was just starting to incorporate the Brazilian art. I threw those guys around like dolls. Since, I thought my ground grappling base was covered, I only focused on Muay Thai .

When I went back to the BJJ class a couple of years later, those same little guys I was throwing around were armlocking, triangling and choking me out like I had just stolen their grandma's purse. I became a believer and student of BJJ, realizing that I needed more than strength!

Of course, I didn't have the technique to deal with these guys, but most of all, I didn't have the "movement capabilities" to hang with them. When my body was put in foreign positions, my neuro-muscular system could not find the most "efficient path to freedom". In my way were blockades, contructed by heavy linear training. I knew how to tense and grind, but I didn't know how to "flow". I didn't know how to get out of my body's own natural path to freedom.

As I life long grappler, I "got it" as soon as I first saw "BodyFlow" or "Grappler's Toolbox" in action. Everything made sense. As I did my "Arching Leg Thread", I saw an escape and reversal from cross-side.
As I did my "Leg Swoop", I saw myself turning in and escaping a "head and arm" position. As I lifted my legs over my head in a "Spinal Rock", I saw calm engulf my body as someone tried to stack me, as I arm barred them. As I did the "Swing Split", I visualized a graceful "hip-heist" and escape. And the "Long Arm Roll" was sculpted into the most beautiful "Granby Roll" I had ever executed.

Was I doing yoga, calistenics or was I preparing to fight? Who said you can't do both.

Those of you familiar with my journey into "BodyFlow", remember a very similar testimony about "IOUF" and "Joint Mass Center". I was about to begin study in Judo, but I had no one to workout with me. So, I added many of the "Leg Fencing" movement drills to my yoga class. I could prepare to "fight" without "fighting".

Result, without every taking a Judo class and only doing the Zdorovye and studying the "Immovable Object Unstoppable Force" material, I traveled to one of the toughest Judo dojos in the state and did "very" well...against all belts. I came back to my local dojo and they laughed at my unorthodox positions that I developed from IOUF's "Joint Mass Center", but in two years, I've never been thrown in that dojo.

What they don't understand is how I can keep my "Judo" skills when I rarely get the chance to workout. I only attend a class every other week and just for 30 minutes or so of randori.

What they don't get is that every time I teach my yoga class and incorporate variations of the Four Corners Drills, Accordian and leg infinities, I am also doing Judo.

I am fighting without fighting!

[Robert V]

My question now, who else had a similar experience? Am I alone? What was your experience?

Scott,

Was this your intention? Was it an accident or calculated?

[bob_stra]

> My question now, who else had a similar experience? Am I alone? What >was your experience?

S-H-U-S-H !! You're giving the game away!! ;-)

Many similar experiences here. Eg - spinal wave for Zdorovye, clean to order (clubbells), supplay (thowing), lower a box form a shelf to the floor in the pantry.


>Scott,
>Was this your intention? Was it an accident or calculated?

Accident, huh? I bet you still believe in Santa claus as well ;-)

PS: I do recall reading your previous IOUF exploits over on mma.tv, but I have lost the thread. Would it be possible for you to repost that here Robert? I'd love to see it again.

[Robert V]

From: nowaydo
Date: 30-Oct-02 11:19 PM

I have to take some time to share the experiences I've had with Scott Sonnon and the ROSS material.
I had seen advertisements for his martial arts material, but I've been involved in martial arts for almost 25 years and with more different arts than I can name. I really didn't think there was anything I had not seen, moreover I realized styles vary but the basics always work. So, I passed.

However, I was on a mission to revolutionize my yoga/pilates. I wanted as many different opinions and concepts to aid me in my quest. So, my first experience with the ROSS material came by the way of Zdorovye and Dvizheniye. I heard it is was similar...but different.

I liked the material. It inspired me to incorporated my dance training background in my martial arts. I was ashamed I'd never saw how one could help the other. And his joint rejuvenation work was something I couldn't live without.

Yet, it was almost a year later that I took a chance on any other material.

Continue...




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I had been working hard polishing my "clinching" skills. I decided to add Judo to my arsenal. I didn't want to become a Judoka, just a fighter with an intelligent understanding of the throwing concept. I thought ROSS/ "Unstoppable force Immovable object" might be what I was looking for.
I was correct. I studied the material as if I were studying for an exam. I was fortunate enough to have a Judo class with people who were experienced, but not "polished" so I could try out the material. All I can say is that for five months in this class, I've yet to be thrown!(I do get thrown at Metro)

Then, I took a chance with Scott's Arthrokinetics. This immediately caught my attention, for my love of "Catchwrestling" and Scott's teaching approach. He teaches submission as a true science.

My last investments were Fisticuffs and Leg Fencing/Flow Fighting. This revolutionized the way I looked at a combative relationship. The Flow Fighting is in my VCR right now.(One of Scott's videos is always in my VCR or around it)The Leg Fencing is addictive. I can't stop watching it.

You hear so many questions about the clinch, Judo in the streets, gi-less throws. Let me tell you, Leg Fencing answers all of those questions!

Surprisingly, the Leg Fencing has also changed the way I teach my yoga class.



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There are many critics. Not everyone gets it. Not many give it a chance, but ROSS is a complete and effective training concept.
It's not for someone just searching for cool techniques.

One of the best things about it is its structure. I had no idea how much the Dvizheniye would assist me in understanding and performing his fighting concepts. Yoga is for Yogis. Running is for runners. Weightlifting is for weightlifters. But Dvizheniye is for fighters! That's the difference. Of course, anything can help a fighter, but few things were designed for fighters.

The key things I've discovered is that you must study his material, not watch it. It's not a martial art but a "Combative Science". That means dozens and dozens of viewings, note taking and rewinding.

Yet, most essential is putting it into play. I've used his concepts with novice fighters, experience martial artist, Judo blackbelts, experienced Sambo players and NHB fighters.

I covet Leg Fencing and IOUF the most. No, I want be able to throw champion Judo blackbelts consistently...for awhile, but for the little training time I have available and for my limited experience, his material has vaulted my performance.

I must also say, Scott has been there as a friend, coach and supporter. He has always been there when I needed him.

How many top instructors can you just call upon and they are there to answer any questions for you.

Believe me, all of my purchases set me back some, but they changed my combative life.

Thanks Scott!


Robert V.

[Robert V]

http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/13/verdell.html

This was something I wrote for the magazine.

[bob_stra]

http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/13/verdell.html

This was something I wrote for the magazine.

Excellent. Thank you. If and when you get the time, I'd love to hear the specifics of your explorations. I'm currently planning to return to judo so I can better explore the IOUF materials (gave it away a few years ago for sub-grappling).

Ironically, I didn't get Zdorovye until I saw IOUF. I think the RMAX folks would do themselves a favor by showing a few pertinent snippets from other videos on each tape. "You've discovered what Z health can do for you. Now take the next step" (Hey, I'm not a professional copywriter. Can you tell? ;-)

FWIW I've discovered a few kooky applications. For example, when gardening, all of my movements seem to be GTB inspired. Yes, I really do get down there and do shinboxes, cossack squats etc admist the tomatoes and cabbages ;-)

Work wise, performing shiatsu has become a breeze. Comfort in semi sitting positions. Navigation around a body. Ability to apply consistent force due these. (anyone who's ever done shiatsu knows that kneeling for 90 minutes ain't fun).

I make a game of seeing if I can discover a new application every now and again. Interesting times can be had on buses, with chairs, with doors, tomato jars.... stories for other times ;-)

On a somewhat related issue - I'm having some wicked troubles trying to ''figure out'' force vectors on the fly. Too much information, too quickly! I keep getting in my own way. This mostly occurs under the tumult of an aggressive exchange.

Any tips for gaining proficiency - ie: using the other training directions of ROSS (Z health) to develop this (force vector appreciation)? I don't have a reliable training partner yet, so any *solo training* idea? Eg - One drill I recently thought of was covering my punching bag with my gi, swinging it wildly, then "grappling" with the returning bag. (haven't figured out how to add in random swing effect yet. Perhaps a bungee cord? If nothing else, it seems like a good setup for practicing the "change position, change grasp" idea).

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack your thread Robert ;-) (if anyone has any ideas on the above, feel free to PM me directly)


TTT for Robert's question.

[Scott Sonnon]

Robert, thank you for an excellent question. Yes, indeed, this is the underpinning intent behind all of my work. I wanted to present my system to an industry intent on hyper-codifying martial art into a rote litany of techniques and theories (read here: beliefs). I knew that there were two approaches: firstly, create a grass-roots following and in 10 or 20 years hope that the original intent was not lost; or secondly, present an exhaustive overview presentation through internet, articles, books and videos to indelibly chronicle the intent.

I believe that many have attempted the former and failed because they could not maintain quality control even only two generations (of education) beyond. We see these vitriolic debates in JKD/JKD Concepts, Wing Tsun/Chun, oh... and even Sambo/SOMBO.

I wanted to learn from those mistakes and take advantage of the modern media, especially the internet, to make a clear and comprehensive presentation of my work.

The problem of course has been in the intimidatingly massive body of work I've presented, as Bob implies. It's difficult to see from only one or maybe two of my courses what the 'whole' actually comprises. It's even more difficult to see from even ALL of the resources I've presented, if the viewer remains passive and does not actively and diligently practice, explore and apply.

Like Bob alludes, in order to truly understand this body of work, one must apply it Gestalt, for efficiency cannot be compartmentalized. One must apply it to every aspect of one's life.

Another problem with my approach is that by presenting the total body of work, people prejudice the parts. For instance if one only sees Warrior Wellness, then it must be that the course is about Joint Mobility. I recently wrote an article just about this circumstance called Simply Sophisticated (http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1039). Presumably this too is unavoidable, even with Bob's suggestion of clipping in segments from other courses.

A tad more nefarious is the piracy of the work by people who present it as their original work. I've come to learn that if one presents ANYTHING one must expect a degree of piracy, but still, this was an oversight that I did not predict.

But in my opinion, with extraordinary individuals like the both of you, and the many others here at CST Forum, as well as the many more who do not have internet access, the presentation of this body of work will continue with the obvious quality that you two present.

Bob, one drill you can do is with a tennis ball serving machine, and in lieu of it, throwing a tennis ball against a wall. Not only does it improve extrapolated accuracy in applying force vectors, but it lends the opportunity to control velocity. Another drill involves balls of various sizes hanging from a bar or tree limb on rope of various lengths. Hitting them away and minimizing the impact while minimizing how much interference you cause to the trajectory while minimizing how much total movement you make.

I took a BJJ class after a 3 year layoff, went 5 minutes live with 3 other guys my "belt", one after the other, and did not get tapped. A guy with about 35lbs on me said "damn your strong" , thing was I wasn't muscling him - I was positioning him. Between that and being able to maintain grip I was better then when I quit.

I hit a heavy bag last night for the first time since the summer. I do a lot of moving in and out, circular etc...like a real kyokushin bout. I was smoother then I remeber being when I fought.

Robert,

If you think about it your "strongman-do" idea wasn't so crazy - you were just not training the right set of tools. But the idea that being the baddest you can be is not a technique accumulation thing was right on.

Bill

[Scott Sonnon]

There were two other points I neglected to make:

Firstly, we often hear here (and I in person, at seminars, by email countless times), "How do I put it all together? How does it work all together?"

My answer always is - how do you put it all together for what? Each course was crafted by choosing the combat medium most ostensibly demonstrating the material therein: i.e. Joint Mass Centeris much more obvious in grappling than it is in striking. Shock-Absorption is much more obvious in striking than it is in knife fighting. The principles in Arthrokinetics are much more obvious in ground-fighting than in multiple attackers. The principle of Improvisational Biomechanics (from Plural Assailant Engagements) is much more obvious in multiple attackers than it is in grappling. The principle of Biomechanical Efficiency is much more obvious in fitness than it is in Fisticuffs. The principle of the Vortex/Zone is much more obvious in Fisticuffs than it is in fitness. You see my point, I'm sure.

ALL of the principles are present in EACH direction, but in order to make ANY resource a reality, it must be comprehensible and reasonably succinct.

The second point regards this forum. People ask how to put it together in their personal practice. Well, here you go... I doubt I need to say more regarding the incalculable value this forum resource presents. It's obvious people are finally getting "it." But boy, has it been a long, long road.

[bob_stra]

/ skeptical /

Tennis balls?

/ skeptical /

Well ok, I willing to try most anything ;-)

The interesting condurum is how in the hell Scott discovered all these ideas in the first place? Given the nature of things, the stuff isn't exactly obvious.

Imagine the time & resources invested. The source material. The people.

*scratches head*

It's kinda depressing actually ;-)

I'd don't think I'd be the first in calling for some kind of "Sonnon - The Early Years" CST article. Would let us know you too were merely human once :-)

[bob_stra]

People ask how to put it together in their personal practice. Well, here you go ...

*Smiles ironically*

Must get 'fun' answering all the same questions, over and over and over and over and ....

:lol:

[Chuck Kechter]

"Like Bob alludes, in order to truly understand this body of work, one must apply it Gestalt, for efficiency cannot be compartmentalized. One must apply it to every aspect of one's life. "

Truer words. . .

"/ skeptical / Tennis balls? / skeptical / Well ok, I willing to try most anything"

A fun drill I used to do when I lacked a partner to bounce off of, was to take a basketball and throw it against a (brick) wall. When it came back I would practice punching/ elbowing/ kicking/ kneeing it. Sometimes the ball would return "true," other times it would take an odd bounce and I'd have to chase it a bit--with the idea of continuing my "combative" motions. I found as the drill progressed that I was moving further and further from the wall, as the ball's speed, and the force it returned at, increased. Reducing my reaction time, and increasing the level of impact on my body parts. It almost always turned into a great anaerobic/aerobic skill drill.

Great thread Robert! Great share Coach Sonnon!

Chuck