When parents don't interview MA "teachers"

[Scott Sonnon]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xw1hqx2gVII

Instead of beating minors, I'd love to see this abusively deplorable excuse for an educator in just one competition.

[HereBeADragon]

guy looks like he has some good stuff but he sure isnt a teacher. Can you say fear reactivity? I somehow imagine his techniques would not workout so well against someone who is not trained to expect a beating. I hate guys like that. I mean my students always had to take their lumps as do I but that is pretty excessive.

[Scott Sonnon]

It's a common problem throughout martial art... I've had to troubleshoot this for hundreds if not thousands of martial art instructors.

They each have a distorted and misappropriated designation of Static Drills. "Rote technique" is misunderstood as a Fluid, if not worse Dynamic, Drill, so they turn up the intensity as if there is some benefit of doing so. They believe this because they see their "rote technique" as how they will perform under live stress, but as we have seen in competition or in review of law enforcement and security video - never once has a martial art instructor performed under duress as s/he 'rehearses' a rote technique. Static Drills are for studying mechanics, not for performance of any illusory skill.

And with that distortion, you have those less than scrupulous who believe that they harder they apply force against those who have been trained to be complaint, the greater the perceived value.

All that theory gets boiled out in the cauldron of competitive resistance (Fluid to Dynamic Drills; Softwork to Hardwork.)

[Nick1974]

He's doing a great job of re-enforcing his students' flinch and freeze reflexes.

I know nothing about martial arts - could someone explain why he believes this to be a good thing? Is the idea of this to 'break the ego' of the student? To give them a 'taste of reality', a wake-up call to remind them how weak they really are, and how much they have yet to learn?

The problem I see with this approach is that the student will always flinch or freeze until such times that he believes he has 'mastered' the technique.

[Scott Sonnon]

Exactly, Nick:

1. Compliance is learned/conditioned.
2. Resistance (non-compliance) is learned/conditioned.

It's a common error for MAists to believe that when you're playing the part of complaint zombie/victim you're helping the attacking martial artist. It's a very perverse form of co-dependence... with the unfortunate product of conditioning the victim to be a victim, and the attacking martial artist to believe that a true assailant will act with compliance. Both parties lose in this equation.

Another common error for MAists is to believe that when you give cooperative resistance to another MAist that you're doing them an injustice because their 'techniques' don't work as well. Obviously the truth of the matter is that:
A. It's not the technique that's important but the experience of facing live resistance.
B. Both parties benefit because the engagement lacks compliance. This doesn't mean that the drill lacks cooperation: all intended engagements, whether in class, on the mat, or in a simulation/replication scenario, are ALL cooperative by definition. Graduating that cooperation with unpredictable, chaotic resistance is the KEY to programming success under actual (non-training) stress.

[stultzies9]

I would LOVE to see this guy in a good MMA match against someone that's willing to do something besides lay there and cover up when they've been taken down.

I saw a Wing Tsun instructor like this when I was in college once. He was part of the Leung Tsing (sp) organization, and it looked very familiar to this piece of footage.

[Coach Tran]

WOW! I want to just write this particular person doesn't represent how wing chun instructors treat or train their students. I have never seen anything like this in any of the wing chun schools I have visited in NYC. This particular person totally needs a lesson in emotional and social intelligence. Being a good instructor in any MA system means having empathy for your students. I guess this wing chun master doesn't get enough love and attention at home.

[Scott Sonnon]

Bao,

I don't think anyone considers this an indictment of WC, per se, but rather of an ineffectual, counter-productive and dangerous teaching method which pervades all conventional martial art training. I've seen this just as frequently in other styles (including Russian) as in Wing Chun.

[Snooby]

What type of questions do you ask to see if the MA instrutor is worth his or her salt? I am looking for a good instructor.

[Scott Sonnon]

How would you interview a lifeguard who would be teaching your children to swim?

[Coach Tran]

How would you interview a lifeguard who would be teaching your children to swim?

Coach,

Swimming analogy has also been used in wing chun. The late Yip Man said one cannot learn to swim on dryland. He made this comment to encourage his teenage students to test out his system by challenging others schools and their members. In our age, this is definitely not a good thing to encourage to children and young adults. "How would you interview a lifeguard who would be teaching your children to swim?" This is a good question and starting point for parents who want their child to study the arts.

[mushtaq]

That was pretty bad, but sad to say, I've seen worse (http://198.65.157.77/video/kungfu-teacher.html)

Warning, This is not for the faint of heart.

[Scott Sonnon]

Bao,

I'm more impressed with athletes who train for a sport, than with the punks who challenge different schools. The former demands that with each victory you face increasingly more challenging opponents; the latter does not. The former requires diligence, dedication and persistence WITH good character - the latter does not.

Mushtaq,

I've seen that clip before. Par for course... :x

[Jarlo Ilano]

That was pretty bad, but sad to say, I've seen worse (http://198.65.157.77/video/kungfu-teacher.html)

Warning, This is not for the faint of heart.

That's Satoru Sayama, he teaches Shooto in Japan.

There's alot of interesting stories about him to say the least!

Ry Hurst has been over there.

[Coach Flanagan]

maybe Ryan can make a THP cycle for this guy to make him less of an a****le

Maybe just go straight to Mental/Emotional Preparedness - thats probably where the greatest performance impediments are... Just a guess

[JasonE]

Excellent representation of all the worst aspects of MA. This kind of stuff gets my hackles up in the worst way. I know of local examples like this, and am constantly amazed that they continue to get students.

I considered posting links to more examples, but I think two is enough. :(

[Coach Hurst]

Satoru Sayama is a real sweetheart.

Needs more than just a THP. :wink:

[Brazenkaine]

I was a WC instructor for a few years. This looks exactly like Emin Boztepe's system/Leung Ting/ Kerspect (German guy who Emin learned from)-or a VERY CLOSE spin off. Emin is a tough guy, a Turk who grew up in Germany, even challenged Royce Gracie to a no rules fight, has faster hands than Bruce Lee, has been shot blablablabla. He's as bad as they say..It IS all true...

I knew guys who went to his seminar. One of them came back with the most serious HUGE hideous bruise under his entire bicep Apaently , everyone also had to take a MANDATORY chop to the back of the neck to experience his power. He's very charasmatic and he has students everywhere. Saw a seminar vid, where he uses MMA gloves and does similar treatment to his partner. Only differnce was none of the attacks were planned.

I think many people are attracked to this type of training. Perhaps, it validates them...like "I survived another class...I'm getting GOOD?" Oh..just remembered, I knew another guy...left our WC school to join the EB school, had to leave it due to injuries. .... I have nothing against the world of WC, took what I liked and moved on.

Long live RMAX.

[Brazenkaine]

ps I jsut remembered something before going to bed;

During my years in a formal WC environment, tournaments were looked down upon by WC guys, especially the higher up Sifus. They held the belief that it isn't real, and the addage "if I use my techniques in a tournament I'd get disqualified cuz I'd really hurt the guy."

Conversely, a guy from my school went into the UFC early on (can't remember the #). Outside the school, I'd seen this guy feild all sorts of stuff from other "tough guys" with ease. In the ring, he stood like a statue in the WC stance. He went against David Beneteau (sp?), Canadian natioal wrestling champ. Beneteau took the guy down, mounted, and punched the WC man in face 23 TIMES (we had to rev. and slow the tape to count) in under 25 secs. There was a much more expereinced WC guy who did the MMA thing in a now defunkt (sp?) organaization (World Combat blablabla). They did a large pre-fight on him. Showed him doing the Jong (wooden dummy), taking on multiple attackers. In the ring, he got slammed HARD by Igor (last name?) the same guy who beat Mario Sperry years back (in a very exciting match). It was an utter embarassment in lieu of all the hooplah prior to the fight.

Mind you I'm not saying wing chun can't perform. it can.. I'm just ranting a little. Also, PERHAPS nowadays the MMA stuff is not so scoffed at in the WC world, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was still the case.

So much for tournaments eh?

*I used to follow all that stuff when my friend had PPV cable. Ah the good 'oul days!*

[Coach Jones]

That fight is still one of my FAVORITES. It shows, in crystal clear detail what happens when people attempt to apply "mastery" in a static environment to competition.

[Brazenkaine]

which one? the one w/the WC guy i knew was so quick it didn't even make the UFC televised card, it was a pre-lim and they showed it as "this is what happened earlier." It must've been less than 30 sec...it had to've.

I don't remember the other WC guy's name but the Russian made quick work of him.

[Scott Sonnon]

Igor Zinoviev? :wink:

http://www.rmax.tv/images/iz.jpg

[KD Jones]

So, I've never gotten to see this switch from drills to reality. My ignorant eye looks at this guy (from the first post, the creep hitting his students) and I can't quickly pull it apart as the more experienced can...

I look at it, and yeah, he's taking advantage, and yeah, it's beyond wrong, and yeah, it looks counter-productive, and no, I really can't see the point... BUT... my problem is that I can't see that he'd be weak under real pressure*. I just see fast, I see the techniques working accurately, and I think "that guy would annihilate me in 3 seconds."

Maybe this is why they draw students. People like me CANNOT see the deception. (Even now, though I'm bought in, it's still really taken on faith.)

So, if a person really felt the need to learn to fight (for whatever reason), and saw this, it's very likely that it would be logical - internally, based on their understanding - that they would need to take the hits.

People can only reason with what they know. The question is how can people know more? I would LOVE to tell all the potentially wonderful students who are swallowed up by this kind of horrid junk that it's not the best way. But unless there's a way to give them mental tools - even if it be in the form of demonstrarion - to reason otherwise.

What we need is a new DVD title... "RMAX DisemPowered Lies, Setups and Suckerpunches."

*even though I am repelled by him, and even though my "propaganda sensitive" mind applies that repulsion to creating an aura of weakness around him...

[Chuck Kechter]

KD,

I was going to leave all tis alone, as it "needed" no voice over from me, but you asked a very valid question:


The question is how can people know more?

I can only answer from my perspective: that of a multi decades combat sport player...

If the instructor/coach/(whatever title-heading), isn't sparring, rolling, or working with his charges on the mats -- barring a for real injury (and you'll know those by duration, acuteness, and how chronic the condition), then the odds are that he's a shill.

There ARE exceptions to this: Angelo Dundee (to my knowledge) never gloved up, yet he had more champions of boxing then any other trainer. The difference between him and the waste of time on the video -- Angelo NEVER needed the ego stroke of "proving" how "deadly" he was "attacking" a charge who is not resisting.

Other exception -- those that teach that are not into the MA as a combat sport, or self-protection (see RBSD)... Certain TMA's would fall here, and they would have as their focus: cultural appreciation/replication, art, et cetera...

See this article for further amplification: http://www.chuckkechter.com/Performance%20in%20MA.html

Does that help?

[Scott Sonnon]

KD,

Your question is certainly valid, but it presumes that we are in a position to convert others. We are not. People have every right to their beliefs, and we must honor their right. However, we are not at all required to honor the belief itself, if they are in contradiction to our own. Allow me to explain how I see the distinction: I honor the right for someone to choose to believe that practicing the above performance (demo'ed in the first clip) is the best, healthiest, most productive approach to self-protection. However, my experience shows me that the belief itself contradicts the reality of experiences... and so, I shall prod it, offer alternatives, explain the erroneous presumptions underpinning the belief, challenge the principles supposedly supporting the belief, and otherwise question it (I'll even poke fun at it. :o :wink: :lol: ).

What I have found is 2-fold:

1. I don't go outside our community, because that's the difference between coaching and evangelism. If someone comes to me, I can share with them my experience of reality through coaching. If I go to someone else, then it's me imposing my reality on them: evangelism.

Over time, at RMAX, people come to realize that they already pre-own a massive template of experiences which contradict the purported reality of said belief (such as the above.) And they gain the confidence to experiment with alternative methods, as a result. When they do actually apply these alternatives, they discover that the rapid, comprehensive and consistent results match perfectly with the reality they have experienced every day of their lives outside of martial art.

2. Reality comes to them. Some unfortunate event shakes them from their dogmatic slumber (as it has for everyone at RMAX) and cautions them to consider alternatives. The longer that we ignore the caution, the greater the severity of the caution, until eventually - traumatic intervention.

At the point that an individual through whatever traumatic "moment of clarity" is willing to consider alternatives, then systems and communities like RMAX appear 'magically' in front of them.

Why life appears to be directed like this - orderly replaying the same problem with different life details again and again with increasing strength of conviction for us to pay attention - is a matter for the philosophers, priests, rabbis and clerics. I'm just a coach, and a man who believes that the Universe appears to have a Divine order and purpose which I can't fathom but can appreciate and honor for the Mystery it is.

[Chuck Kechter]

Coach Sonnon is nicer than I am... :wink: 8) :D

While I completely agree about evangelism... Especially after the last few years...

The rest of this FOR ME falls under the dichotomy of "idiots compassion" vs. "real" compassion.

If I know something is harmful (or possibly fatal) to someone --and I was directed (inner or outer) to "council" them, I would do what I could to turn them from what I know is a harmful path. The harm could be physical, emotional, psychological, or spritual. Harm is harm whether intended or not.

But that is just me.

[Doc]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xw1hqx2gVII

Instead of beating minors, I'd love to see this abusively deplorable excuse for an educator in just one competition.

I am by no means making any apologies for this guy. But note that this was a demonstrational video and not actual training footage. So rest assured that the amount of contact has been "ramped up" for affect. :shock: This is one of the European branchs of the Wing Tsun organization (Denmark I think?). I have seen footage from them in the past centering on sparring in the ring. Of course it was always the students and not the instructors. :D

[Coach Jones]

I agree it's a demonstration video. The interesting question is a demonstration of what.

It's a demonstration of how well the instructor can perform specific applications from his system to a partner conditioned to let him. It's impressive in a choreography sense, and if I were evr to be sucked into a movie and had to defend myself, i'd for sure want this guy on my side.

[Trebor]

That "victim" in the first move stole both my best moves.

1. Fetal position
2. Fetal position with knee grab and gimmace.

I once had an instructor palm strike me in the plex, without warning, while I was standing at attention with my hands at my side. Then he lectured to the class on the power of the palm strike.

Later, when I'd managed to get up and could breath again, he went to demonstrate something else on me and I flinched. I was berated in front of the class for not "trusting" my instructor.

I'm sure many on this board have been through the true joys of idiot MA instructors.

[Scott Sonnon]

Robert,

I have a similar story. When in Russia, several grandmasters of various styles were presenting their expertise to the Russian special forces trainers. Unfortunately, I was the best English speaker there who could speak Russian. I was asked if I would be uke, to which I immediately accepted the honor.

I was told how to attack. Each time, a technique was demonstrated on my the grandmaster attempted to slam me into the marble floor on which we trained. Each time I landed soft as a tissue falling. That's my job, isn't it? The grandmaster told me that he's never had someone fall so softly. Testimony to my training, and kudos to my coach.

So, he took up the juice because he thought that since I was in excrutiating pain that his techniques did not look effective. On the next throw, he literally jammed is thumb into the back of my eye socket in the attempt to slam me into the ground. I still landed softly, but tears and blood streamed down the eye. Somehow the sympathetic tearing made me lose not only the contact on the struck eye, but also on other. Blinded basically, I was looking around, only to see the grandmaster discussing the effectiveness of his style and asked me to translate what I experienced.

One of the top Russian trainers (a master of sport in sambo, judo and olympic weight lifting) said, "why? Scott is our friend." The grandmaster responded something along the lines of (paraphrasing), "to demonstrate the effectiveness of not knowing what's coming." Another Russian fighter replied, "but he did, and Scott stood there to took it like a Russian" (a very high complement if you ever have the privilege of learning about the Russia 'soul.')

I had to excuse my self to go to the infirmery at that point so I don't know what happened afterwards.

[Scott Sonnon]

Robert,

I have a similar story. When in Russia, several grandmasters of various styles were presenting their expertise to the Russian special forces trainers. Unfortunately, I was the best English speaker there who could speak Russian. I was asked if I would be uke, to which I immediately accepted the honor.

I was told how to attack. Each time, a technique was demonstrated on my the grandmaster attempted to slam me into the marble floor on which we trained. Each time I landed soft as a tissue falling. That's my job, isn't it? The grandmaster told me that he's never had someone fall so softly. Testimony to my training, and kudos to my coach.

So, he took up the juice because he thought that since I was in excrutiating pain that his techniques did not look effective. On the next throw, he literally jammed is thumb into the back of my eye socket in the attempt to slam me into the ground. I still landed softly, but tears and blood streamed down the eye. Somehow the sympathetic tearing made me lose not only the contact on the struck eye, but also on other. Blinded basically, I was looking around, only to see the grandmaster discussing the effectiveness of his style and asked me to translate what I experienced.

One of the top Russian trainers (a master of sport in sambo, judo and olympic weight lifting) said, "why? Scott is our friend." The grandmaster responded something along the lines of (paraphrasing), "to demonstrate the effectiveness of not knowing what's coming." Another Russian fighter replied, "but he did, and Scott stood there to took it like a Russian" (a very high complement if you ever have the privilege of learning about the Russia 'soul.')

I had to excuse my self to go to the infirmery at that point so I don't know what happened afterwards.

[KD Jones]

Coach Sonnon -
OK. That story actually made me dizzy. God bless your perseverance.

We've talked recently about the strange effects of the internet and modern technology in general... here's another bit: after only watching you on video and only knowing your words from the forum, my physical reaction to this story was like I'd heard this about my own brother (not that other's stories do not affect me). And I'm certain others feel the same on reading it.

I suppose, even more than the effects of technologically-based communication, this is the effect of truly, openly sharing lessons that do not come easy. The spirit of that act seems to carry in the wind.

Blessings.

[peterng25]

Scott,
excuse me if I am wrong, aren't you the guy who let them break your arm rather than let the US team disqualify?

[Coach Flanagan]

Wondering how thats related to the topic.... :?:

[peterng25]

just sounds like the same vein: coach is so tough, it's unimaginable to me personally.

[Scott Sonnon]

I wouldn't call it tough. Probably "Selective Stupidity" is more accurate.

[Coach Flanagan]

Peter,

thanks for clarifying. I perceived the tone of your previous post inaccurately.

[JasonE]

I knew guys who went to his seminar. One of them came back with the most serious HUGE hideous bruise under his entire bicep Apaently , everyone also had to take a MANDATORY chop to the back of the neck to experience his power.

A mandatory chop to the back of the neck was necessary for them to understand he had striking power? If he wasn't knocking them out and causing some damage, I have to wonder just how much power he was generating.

Just another way to waste seminar time.

[KD Jones]

It's similar to the Clubbell breathing demonstration on the Integrating Structure DVD - his aggression was sent to the bathroom before the strike so no-one would die.

[Brazenkaine]

How long did it take for you eye to heal, and was there any long term damage?

KPO

[Scott Sonnon]

Kynch, a couple weeks, and not that I know of... but rarely do we realize the stupidity of our behavior until many years hence.

[Brazenkaine]

Before Wing Chun, long before it I did a style of TKD that was really a hybrid of boxing and TKD kicking ..which i got my blackbelt in. The tests from brown up, were meant to tear you apart. THEN, sparing came. We wore those ridiculous point karate Macho pads, yet we were doing essentially kickboxing i.e. they offered no protection (2 oz gloves?). The instructor put me up against a pro-kickboxer. 2 Serious black eye resulted along w/lock jaw. I really learned how to flinch and get knocked down. Actually ...I think I became THE BEST @ those particular skills that day. It took years to overcome that experience.

[Scott Sonnon]

Kynch, I comisserate, amigo. When I first began training in martial art formally in the late 80s, after many months of training pa kau chang I was finally given 'permission' to spar. I went against my instructor's instructor, who popped me in the beak so hard that it dropped me to my knees. You see, he was a former golden gloves US Navy boxer, and despite his high 'rank' in PKC, whenever he sparred, he boxed. At that point, I realized that I needed to re-evaluate my personal practice.

[Brazenkaine]

tell me if we've exp'd the same things (on one plane or another);

after I got my blackbelt..sorry BEFORE...I became very disenchanted with that system i was in. Aikido was a mandatory part of the program. I learned to be an "ok" uke, but it was so incredibly choreographed and removed from reality that it too was a drag. There was a full contact Kung Fu guy (who knows what style) in the same gym. He came up to me one day, we were chatting, he grapped my wrist and said ok NOW WHAT? I thought, "hmm good question!" I knew of Wing Chun and found a "school." It was in a home, very traditional. I knew that system would cure the deer in headlights look I gave the kung fu guy, and deal with most situations of that nature. About 7 years through, I had that same feeling...this is going nowhere..or I"M going nowhere, but i still hung on years more ..mistakenly in retrospect. I got permission around the 7 year mark from my Sifu to study the Gracie system. 2 HUGE adjustments or reframing, so far. After discovering your system of total health (@ 40 yrs of age now) i have once again reframed my approach (3rd time) . Perhaps that's just life...a requirment thereof?! I've essentially taken a year off grappling. due to health and teeth (minus 4 front lower-it's cool, you can't tell), so I reckon the tweaking continues. One thing for sure now; My martial skills are "ok," and more importantly- there's no pressure AND i'm having some fun.

fun-what a novel idea!?!

[KD Jones]

A brief step backward...

Thanks, Chuck. Read the article, and it does clarify. Much appreciated.


... Your question is certainly valid, but it presumes that we are in a position to convert others. We are not. People have every right to their beliefs, and we must honor their right. ...

Oops. Reread my post, and it does look like I was tending in this direction. My intent was otherwise.

Really, I meant only to ask how I might see into a thing like this - have a better view of what's real and what isn't.

Based on a little thought after the fact and Chuck's response, I'm thinking the first thing to look for in assessing a really "effective system" is real resistance in the demonstration. Obviously, this isn't going to come from an instructor's junior students - though I know there are exceptions.

Through the twisting of words I did make it sound like an evangelistic enterprise. But I was looking for clarity in my own perception of these things.

[Silo9]

You're giving me a flashback to last month when you, Gene, Chuck, and Coach Sonnon, (along with a few others) were addressing my concerns about a rank exam. Watching this discussion seems to address similar issues. I'm still here. Listening, watching, and learning!

Thanks,

Dave

[Scott Sonnon]

Dave,

Did you have your exam? Wasn't it tentatively slated for the Summer?

[Silo9]

Coach, it got backed up. Thanks for asking. Got affected by a RIF at work, have bad knee pain, from when I was going to the next level of Flow Fit, (I was'nt folding at the hips before I squat), Sprained my wrist while grappeling(stupid), and am now out due to accident at work. L5 injury, that my Doctor is working on. I am trying to get with Coach Joseph, here in Texas. He wants to see whats going on with my knees. Pain at top of cap, especially while sitting. I am working some on Inu Flow, but don't want to mess up the back treatment I am getting from the Doc. I'm really frustrated! Also, being out of work at my primary job, has prevented me from teaching my classes.(Workers Comp/insurance people like to film people doing what they should'nt be.) I did order Softwork, and Hardwork. I know this is jumping way ahead of what you told me to work on, but it will give me something to watch on TV(something productive) while I'm all iced down.

Thanks again for asking, and remembering!!!!!

Dave

[Scott Sonnon]

Dave,

Get with Joseph Schwartz. He's a superb CST Instructor and incredible bodyworker! Please keep me updated on your recovery.

[Silo9]

Coach,

Got it! Thanks!

[JasonIngram]

In my opinion this kind of training looks highly ineffective. A lot of emphasis is placed on speed at the expense of power and follow through.

[aaronk]

i just watched that video clip, and that eyepoke and scream at the end is just disgusting. Even if its just a demonstration, not a class.. Its proper out of order.

Ive had expierence with a instructor of wt just like this. He had a highrank in wt, dont know what organisation. Lets call him 'quick hands'

He trained grappling at a gym once a week, always talking bad stuff about this and that style of ma and wt. I rolled with him, and quick hands out of no where, does a chain punch in my guard. :? I told him realy polite "its just grappling mate" and his reply "I WAS JUST SHOWING YOU WHAT CHI SAO TRAINING CAN DO" well after just pinning him, and totaly shutting him down. I guessed he would feel pretty helpless.. I roll with some other people and i overhear quick hands "that grappler could not tap me, in a real fight i would kill him"
Next session i rolling kneebar him, and leg scissor him about 20 times in a row. His student was also in the grappling class.. After the session i was in the sauna. And he in his student come in, and he tells him how crap judo is, and how controlling the 5 wt ranges bla bla bla. Some mins later out of the sauna he tell me "i want to show my shihing something, try to do a hipthrow" so i just get him in the position with out throwing him, and he bases out and punches me in the throat full power. While i let go of him he says "thats what you would do to a grappler in a real fight"
Well than my poliness was gone and tell him if he ever wants to do shit like that again, he better be prepared to face the punisment of it.
Next session, we spar a bit of mma... and i have to do some rounds with quick hands. And i get knee on the stomach, and he tries to go for my balls and punches them. I told him to get up, cause a real fight is starting and i dont want to hear any exuces. And to show the power of grappling, i just took him down and choked him out.

The instructor of this class, was just the gym owner. and all he did was say stuff like warmping up, sparring etc. no instruction. I just went there to have some extra training time.

Im just so disgusted with instructors and the way the let people behave in the gym. Im just 21, won a couple of pro fights with out having fought amateur. And most people always think its cool to beat or hurt a "pro" in sparring..Several times i have been so disapointed in people in the martials arts world i just wanted to quit training.


What ever happend to respect and training with each other, and making each other better. Being a part of a same school or team, class what ever should have some sort of bond.

I wrestled with loads and loads of russian and other former ussr refugees, at a wrestling club being led by a very good russian coach. Being the only dutch native in class, i was excepted as one of them. No mather how hard you sparred or how soft, how many time you ****ed stuff up. No one had a ego. People always talk about how the traditional martial arts are full of respect, but i think amateur sports like wrestling and boxing are full of respect.

sorry for the long ramblin, and the english.. im dutch :)

[Matt_OZ]

Aaron,

Yes that is indeed a crappy situation. Like you said, it happens with amazing frequency in many places. It truly agree that it is up to the person running the session (instructor, coach, facilitator or whatever you want to call them) to cultivate an appropriate training environment. The sad thing is that a great many instructors are so concerned about $ that they won't turn people away. They make idle threats about "oh yeah, if he keeps that up I'll kick him out" but it never seems to happen, it's truly pathetic and bad for the students who are truly there to learn.

I honestly feel that problems such as this will continue for ever and a day until more instructors are willing to put their foot down about the type of behaviour and environment they want in their club. I'm certainly not saying we have to train like wimps, I think it's definately possible for people to train very intensely without getting injured or scared off, I think it's all cultivating the environment and making sure everyone knows why they are there. No place can be all things to all people so instructors need to come to terms with what type of training and benefit they want to provide and stick with it. If they want to truly help the common person gain an appreciable level of self defence proficiency as safely as is reasonably possible then stick with that (that's my goal by the way). If on the other hand they want they want to have a flat out full contact fight gym with the goal to help people enter MMA then stick with that. If they want to focus on personal development then keep an eye on that goal. Obviously some of these goals will cross over between each other to some degree but having a clear focus is paramount to cultivating the appropriate training environment.

I think another part of the issue is that many instructors want to have a rep for being tough themselves and also for having a "hardcore" school (I'm using the word hardcore in the way many of these hero guys see it). I think that if someone wants to prove themselves they can go and enter an MMA event, if not then chill out and don't get your kicks by smacking around students (Just my humble opinion). I'm trying to pass judgement on that WT Estonia guy as I don't know what the agreement was between him and his students, who knows, maybe it was a lot of acting to create a spectacle, I wasn't there so I don't feel comfortable making a call on it. I have however come across a lot of that behavious over the years and it's funny how many of those types of instructors usually...

A: Pull their aggresive stuff when the student is compliant and unsuspecting

B: Pull it on beginners

C: Pull it only when they stipulate "oh, no you can't clinch" or "oh, no you have to stay XYZ range" etc, etc.

I think that having a clear description of the schools values, goals and attitude coupled with a conduct code for every prospective member goes a long way to creating a great training environment (these things are of course useless if the instructor won't enforce them). To formulate these goals the instructor needs to decide what their aim is too. I know for me I want to help every "average working Joe or Jane" become the best they can be while training with a self defence focus in a safe and inspiring environment. That's my goal and that's all I'm aiming for and focusing on. If someone enquires with me and wants to become an MMA athlete or grappler I recommend them to the place where my BJJ coach teaches. If they want to become a kickboxing or MT competitor I recommend a terrific coach I know and tell them to try and get into his training group. On the other hand if they tell me they want to learn some really good self defence stuff in a good environment where everyone respects each then I tell them to come on down.

I guess in summary I believe instructors need to...

Know who they want to help
Leave their ego out of it
Stick to their values
Refer people on when appropriate

I certainly don't claim to know all the answers but my ethos is serving me and my participants well so far.

Have a great guys,
Matt :D

[LEO4HIM]

The video was quite disturbing. To me, no excuses, just ego driven! This was addressed in one of the previous replys, but let me quote Tony Blauer:

"...if you seek self-defense reality, don't watch the instructor, watch the role-player. Are they missing, static, stylized or do they replicate the realistic threat? That's the secret to separating fact and fantasy."

It's very hard for me to admit, but 4-5 years ago I would have thought the Instructor from the video was "the bomb" and his system was "THE system."

Now I have to make up for all of that lost time. This forum seems to be just the place to take me in that direction.

I look forward to the journey!

Take care and stay safe...

[Jake Shannon]

I've seen it in catch wrestling for sure. It's always easy to beat up a compliant partner, lol.

[KD Jones]

Aaron -

I just finally got to your post. I have to say you handled that mess honorably. You're the kind of guy I'd have at my back OR in front of me any day.

I think some of that junk comes from the "my techniques are too deadly to use in practice, really." They're making themselves feel good by making someone think there's one set of rules (just out of a sauna?) and then changing them suddenly, without warning, in their favor. And then they want you to believe it would happen just like that on the street.

Is that the way you would have fought them on the street? I thought not.

Horrible, but thanks for telling it.

Blessings.