NHE

[Ryan]

Anyone familiar with Natural Hormone Enhancement, and have you been able to incorporate PNP concepts with it? Success?

Thanks

[Scott Sonnon]

Ryan,

What in particular are you looking to include, and why?

[Ryan]

After reading PNP, I know for a fact that I am sugar sensitive. For example, my favorite candies are Sweettarts, Shocktarts, and Snicker's Bars.

Recently, there was the thread that you started about burning fat instead of sugar. After reading the entire thread, I decided to read the literature on The Rosedale Diet and The Paleolithic Diet. I've tried apply both at different times, with some success, but I cannot break my desire for grains of some sort. While eating lean meats, veggies, nuts, and some fruit my moods were pretty balanced, but my ability to impliment the concepts of the above nutritional protocols resulted in meals that lacked variety and after a few days I dreaded eating them. This is not how nutrition should be. Your enthusiam and heart, IMO, necessary components for your food preparation. After a few days of eating these meals I was pretty unhappy.

So to make a nutritional plan that fits better with my (and my wife's tastes) I wanted to be able to include some carbohydrate rich meals into my weekly menu. I am trying to find a comprimise between the concepts of grain free nutrition, but not completely eliminate grains themselves. After looking around on the internet, I came across, NHE, but I haven't actually read the book. Some of the information I've seen suggests that there is an application of carb loading on every fourth day. I felt that I could probably handle making meals with vegetables as the main carbohydrate source for three days at a time, provided that I have some reprive from it on a regular basis. At the same time, I do not know the source of the carbohydrates used in the carb loading period. Personally, I would use slow burning carbohydrates (steel cut oats, brow rice, quinoa, etc...), however since I don't know if there are specific suggestions that deviate from what I would do, I thought I would ask if anyone has applied the two nutritional paradigms together. My request for Tribe members share their experiences in this is my attempt to gather a little more information before reading the literature directly.

Thanks for asking me to clarify, and I would love to hear everyone's feedback.

[cbeltrante]

Ryan,

Have you ever looked into Dr. John Berardi's "Precision Nutrition"?? I think you will find it to be close to the kind of nutritonal intake you're looking for and I can't recommened it highly enough!!!

Here's the link to the website: Precision Nutrition (http://www.precisionnutrition.com/)

Take care,
Chris

[wiggy1]

Ryan,

I too have trouble with trying to eat grain-free. I have tried very hard, but have found it simply does not work for me. No matter how many vegetables I eat, I cannot keep my blood-sugar level enough without some good slow burning carbs. Skipping the grains inevitable leads to a mid-day crash and binge. So personally, I have just decided to keep them in my nutrition plan (and I think that is what is the most important, finding what works best for you). I just make sure that the grains are as wholesome and natural as possible, like you said, steel cut oats, brown rice, quinoa, Ezekiel bread, etc. I include some with every meal (more or less, depending on my current energy requirements) but have never tried carb loading so I cannot speak to that. But again, that is what works for me. If you follow Potatoes Not Prozac, and thoroughly journal your food, you will quickly discover what works best for you. Good luck!

P.S. One of my favorite ways to get good grains, is a recipe that I make with Brown Rice, Red Quinoa, Diced Tomatoes, and Kidney Beans.

Cook 1 1/2 cup Brown Rice and 1/2 Cup Quinoa in a rice cooker. When done, add 2 cups diced tomatoes, and 2 cups red kidney beans. Continue to cook for 10-15 minutes. Enjoy. Refrigerate leftovers for breakfast, lunch, or dinner :D .

[Connie Brown]

Ryan, I've not tried NHE but from watching people try it on the net, it looks like a bad deal biochemically for a sugar sensitive person who is still unbalanced (highly upregulated). Because that 4th day loading keeps the addictive elements alive. I don't know if you know that the 4th or 5th day is always the worst when withdrawing from grains & sugar - so a "dose" every 4th day is just reenacting the withdrawal story, over and over and over again. If you read personal reports you can "hear" that the most sugar sensitive people have the wildest carb-up days and then say "oh I had too much."

Also... some of that "schwing" and desire for the grains is biochemical. What we think is "that taste" is really firing of BE and dopamine, probably. It takes more than a few days to change all that.

I would recommend going through the PnP steps to get the monkey off the back of "having to have" addictive things, then going to Rosedale level 2 and doing the boring, unsexy, hard work of figuring out what slow carbs please your palate, work for you, and keep you lean as you like.

Chris, Berardi's "Precision Nutrition" can cause problems for some sugar sensitive people due to the recommendation to eat every 3 hours and also because he doesn't address the biochemical impact of splenda and wine. Caveat emptor for a sugar sensitive person. There will be no blood sugar crashes, true, but insulin might be high all the time depending on how the food is composed, how hard the person is working, and the degree of insulin and leptin problems.

[cbeltrante]

There will be no blood sugar crashes, true, but insulin might be high all the time depending on how the food is composed, how hard the person is working, and the degree of insulin and leptin problems.

Connie could you expand on this a little more, I'm curious to hear more about why insulin would be high all the time especially since Dr. Berardi emphasizes the need to eliminate sugar from one's diet.

[Connie Brown]

I'll try, Chris. Remembering that I'm not a nutritionist, all I have is my personal experience, reading all these latest books, and 4 years sharing and learning from sugar sensitive people at RR.

Berardi is writing for high-performing athletes, right? And his expectation of the training volume is high too. So in that case, the "burn rate" for food is fast both because of the demand and because insulin sensitivity is assumed to be either good or not too far out and easily fixed.

The inborn thing about sugar sensitive people is they are on the end of the bell curve that shoots out a lot of insulin in response to carb. So even if there's no sugar as Berardi recommends, the total carb load could affect leptin and insulin signaling differently for the population that is NOT Berardi's track record and experience base: people who train less, or are older, or who have significant resistance to leptin and insulin. Not to mention the brain chemistry part of things.

Rosedale does not talk about meal timing. Byron Richards, another writer who talks about insulin and leptin, says that for people who have developed resistance to leptin and insulin, frequent eating is like "a punch in the nose" to the pancreas. No rest and no time for the trade-off waves of insulin then glucagon that happens with a healthy metabolism. Instead, insulin stays high abnormally long and doesn't go down until after the 3 hour point, because of resistance and a poor burn rate - which doesn't give glucagon enough time to do its thing.

I do believe that eating Berardi style, IF you can do the training volume with good recovery, will eventually even things out - if you can find the magic mix of carbs and avoid the triggers like splenda and wine, and if you can stand the transition period.

The thing about both Berardi and Rosedale, like most nutrition authors, is they assume a nutrition "tabula rasa" where a person can just switch from what they were doing before, to the next day, following the diet author guidelines. At least I don't remember either of those books suggesting how to "break in" with incremental progression.

The result is, the bigger the delta between what the person was doing before, and the sudden switch to a different diet, the worse you can feel. I don't see why we should be training ourselves to feel bad nutritionally any more than we do it on the movement side.

[Adam Steer]

Berardi is writing for high-performing athletes, right? And his expectation of the training volume is high too.

This is the key to understanding JB. He even says in his No Nonsense Nutrition DVD that his approach may not be the best thing for people who are not exercising "vigourously" on a regular basis. In fact, in one of his newer theories, G-Flux (energy flux), his volume recommendation is a minimum of 5 hours per week and he sites athletes with up to triple that volume. The idea is to have a high "flux" of energy in and energy out in order to rev up the metabolism, improving body comp, but also improving what he calls tissue turnover. This tissue turnover (example, out with the old protein in with the new) should allow the body to recover faster and remake itself more quickly into what you are training it to become... (if that makes sense).

Personally, I find that when I am in a period of high volume and or intensity (as in my current cycle), that JBs approach is very helpful in recovery and regeneration. However, I do find that I have to back off a bit when on lower volume or I end up being "forever hungry." I am not sure what the mechanism is that is at work there but that is my observation.

Cheers,
Adam

[Connie Brown]

That's interesting, Adam. You know they call insulin "the hunger hormone" so maybe when you aren't working as high volume, you're taking in more carbs than you can burn fast enough, so insulin stays high dealing with it. all the low carb writers talk about that "forever hunger" going down with carb restriction.

And that tissue turnover issue. I too was re-reading Rosedale and he's like at the opposite pole of that. Exercise moderately for at least 15 minutes a day - sort of like the WW level and that's it. He also is at the low end of protein which is consistent with a low-tissue-turnover cycle.

[Ryan]

Thanks for number of great responses! I have checked out Precision Nutrition, however I am not active enough to adopt that plan. My schedule is not suited to be able to work out before breakfast or dinner. I am also not a huge fan of overly processed protein sources. I do like some of his meal suggestions; it seems like reasonable way to some good nutrition.

Connie, thanks for the feedback. You're right, I need to break my addictive behavior first. Perhaps that is why it has been so difficult to adopt an alternate eating plan. So far I have cut out soda, replaced conventional peanut butter with natural peanut butter, replaced coffee with black tea, and eliminated whites. I find that my energy level is more stable this way. I'm not ready to give up milk, but in an attempt to make it a healthier choice I have been investigating a farm nearby that sells raw goat's milk.

At the very least I am armed with a lot of nutritional information, and have gotten some good advice. Part of the problem is I believe I was treating PNP like another food plan, but that is not the purpose at all. I think the best thing for me to do is put all the other books away for now and focus on PNP to get a strong sense of what works for me. I hate journaling food experiences but it is probably the most significant way to evaluate the process.

Theory is a waste of mental and emotional energy if it is never applied. Thanks again, and continue to post if you have anymore suggestions!

[Adam Steer]

That's interesting, Adam. You know they call insulin "the hunger hormone" so maybe when you aren't working as high volume, you're taking in more carbs than you can burn fast enough, so insulin stays high dealing with it.

Yeah, I am thinking it must be something along those lines. At any rate, my current thinking, for myself only as I am not qualified to make recommendations on the subject, is that my nutrition has to be flexible enough to change around my activity level. I read something here somewhere by Coach Sonnon that talked about meal "partitions" or something like that that changed depending on different factors in his life. I can't quite remember the details of the article or post, but that idea really resonated with me. Sometimes I need 6 smaller meals, sometimes 3 bigger meals, sometimes 4 moderate meals, etc, etc...

[Scott Sonnon]

Adam,

Yessir. My diet changes depending upon the variables of stress I'm adding (and experiencing) in my life. This is the problem with "diet approaches" - they apply only to certain parameters. Life, however, changes, and so too should one's diet to reflect the current circumstances. This is where people without a good intuitive connection to their biochemistry can wreak havoc on their lives - by flippantly shifting. I consult people who I trust when my stress load/type changes, and when they help me reflect the internal experiences I'm encountering, then I shift my diet to reflect that.

Thanks for a great discussion. I'm learning a lot. Connie, great input!!!

[cbeltrante]

That's interesting, Adam. You know they call insulin "the hunger hormone" so maybe when you aren't working as high volume, you're taking in more carbs than you can burn fast enough, so insulin stays high dealing with it. all the low carb writers talk about that "forever hunger" going down with carb restriction

What in Berardi's PN is bringing about this insulin release?? All foods are low-glycemic unless it is a post workout meal which then the simpler carbs can be utilized more efficiently.

PN is not a high carb nutritonal program in fact it's on the moderate to lower end of the carb spectrum. JB talks about keeping the carbs moderate to low until one figures out their carb sensititvity. It's about finding out what ratio works best for each individual person as they progress in the program.

[Connie Brown]

Connie, thanks for the feedback. You're right, I need to break my addictive behavior first. Perhaps that is why it has been so difficult to adopt an alternate eating plan. ... I'm not ready to give up milk, but in an attempt to make it a healthier choice I have been investigating a farm nearby that sells raw goat's milk.
Sounds great actually. I know people who stick with the goat's milk and it's okay. You know I wouldn't finger-wag you on the addiction part, right? Just want you to give yourself a break on the incremental progression.


Part of the problem is I believe I was treating Potatoes Not Prozac like another food plan, but that is not the purpose at all.
Ain't that de truth.


I hate journaling food experiences but it is probably the most significant way to evaluate the process.
Ding ding ding! true, true, true.

Kathleen posted one of her chats just about journal. The premise is that the journal gives a your body a way to speak to you about your experiences in writing.

http://www.radiantrecovery.com/YLDchat040506.htm

Some excerpts...



why is the journal so important...

how about relationship with body

ok, I want to tell you something new
about relationship

a long time ago, I was trained to do relationship by learning to listen to the other person
most of us do not do that
especially when we are mad or disgusted
or when the other person says something we don’t like

will you open up to someone who thinks you are disgusting?

no data

or someone who talks on the phone with you but doesn’t really listen
you know, they are typing while listening

ok, I think when we are fat, the tendency is to do *rote* with the body
"oh let me catch up every two days"

I *have to* do entries
shorthand instead of conversation
5 minutes instead of a dialogue

logging the food is NOT relationship

saying, I really am not interested in what you have to say
saying you are a bother

now, think about whether you would want to spend time with someone you yeah, yeahs you
would you want to spend time with a yeah yeah

[Adam Steer]

That's interesting, Adam. You know they call insulin "the hunger hormone" so maybe when you aren't working as high volume, you're taking in more carbs than you can burn fast enough, so insulin stays high dealing with it. all the low carb writers talk about that "forever hunger" going down with carb restriction

What in Berardi's PN is bringing about this insulin release?? All foods are low-glycemic unless it is a post workout meal which then the simpler carbs can be utilized more efficiently.


I have been using JBs stuff for about 2 years now. At first, I would fight with the "always hungry" thing during those times when my physical activity was scaled back a bit. Only recently have I discovered that I have to modify my approach a bit during those periods. Oddly enough, I totally do not get this effect when I am in a high volume and or intensity phase. For example, right now I am doing a DD cycle while following the 10 habits and am never hungry. It is a bit too complex for me to grasp, but I know that it is true FOR ME. What is the physiological reason for this? Beats me! I hear you on the low GI carbs thing though. I also would have thought that the high protein intake would moderate any kind of insulin spiking problems...

[Connie Brown]

What in Berardi's PN is bringing about this insulin release?? All foods are low-glycemic unless it is a post workout meal which then the simpler carbs can be utilized more efficiently.
The issue I would watch as a sugar sensitive person is not so much how big the insulin release is, as the shape of the curve as it goes down. Any eating triggers somewhat of an insulin rise. I agree it shouldn't be a problem rise, IF the person is working at the right training volume AND insulin sensitivity matches the rise AND fat-burning works well enough so there isn't a BS crash before the next feeding.


PN is not a high carb nutritonal program in fact it's on the moderate to lower end of the carb spectrum. JB talks about keeping the carbs moderate to low until one figures out their carb sensititvity. It's about finding out what ratio works best for each individual person as they progress in the program.
Duly noted, Chris. Gotta like any program that helps each person figure out the right ratio. Sounds like JB and PnP would converge on similar programs anyway since they both rely on the person getting the right ratio at the right times (and PnP says frequent meals for heavy exercisers too)

My caveat on the triggery-foods still stands for JB right? He's still okay with artificial sweeteners and alcohol?

[Connie Brown]

I have been using JBs stuff for about 2 years now. At first, I would fight with the "always hungry" thing during those times when my physical activity was scaled back a bit. Only recently have I discovered that I have to modify my approach a bit during those periods. Oddly enough, I totally do not get this effect when I am in a high volume and or intensity phase. For example, right now I am doing a DD cycle while following the 10 habits and am never hungry. It is a bit too complex for me to grasp, but I know that it is true FOR ME. What is the physiological reason for this? Beats me! I hear you on the low GI carbs thing though. I also would have thought that the high protein intake would moderate any kind of insulin spiking problems...
Adam, did you change your protein between high training and the other kind?

I was re-reading in Rosedale that the reason he limits protein (about half what Berardi recommends) is because some people get insulin effects from turning excess protein into sugar through gluconeogenesis. So even without carbs you have blood glucose for insulin to go deal with.

Makes sense to me that if you don't need the protein for that high-tissue turnover, it can get used for fuel. Course Rosedale is a "diet" book and Berardi is for performance first and recomposition as a result (I think)

[Adam Steer]

[quote=Asteer]Adam, did you change your protein between high training and the other kind?

Hi Connie,

Generally, I scale back everything proportionally. However, your question did help me develop a bit of a "lay theory." I wonder if I don't condition my body to expect a certain volume of food during my high volume/intensity blocks and then when I scale back it is still EXPECTING that volume but doesn't get it. Perhaps the hormonal response is then disproportionate to the amount of food I am ingesting and leads me to feel hungry. When I switch to a different approach, eating fewer but bigger meals, perhaps I am giving more food than the body expects and it keeps me satisfied longer?

Anyhow, just theories... ;-)

Its all good...

Adam

[imported_siameeser]

This is a great discussion. I'm always looking for ways to improve my health and athletic performance.

The food journal is a pain, but indispensible. I've started keeping one this past week and it's been eye opening. I really had no idea how much I was eating, nor did I have any idea of the macronutrient proportions.

This has inspired me to do some serious reading on PNP, NHE, etc....Thanks!

[Coach Tran]

As a CST athlete, this my value and belief:

1. Health
2. Mobility
3. Function
4. Attributes
5. Physique

From this hierarchy I look for a diet that fits my model. When I apply a diet I try to base it on this hierarchy but some dietary gurus do not share tthe same paradigm. Personally, I believe the Paleo Diet follows the CST value hierarchy. Maybe I am wrong? I believe Dr. Desmaison also follow a similar belief system. Based on Coach Sonnon's article "What is Fit-ness", I think we should examine the model of health and fitness of the dietary experts/authors? It seems to me from what I have read on Berardi's website, he doesn't share the set of values as me and that is why his diet doesn't click with me. Mr. Berardi's website seems to target a certain group who value and believe in Physique and Function first models.

1. Physique
2. Function
3. Function
4. Mobility
5. Health

or

1. Attributes
2. Function
3. Physique
4. Mobility
5. Health

Please correct me if I am wrong because I do not have any direct experience with Berardi's diet. I am basing my opinion here on what I have read and seen on this website. These models are examples of the belief systems of bodybuilders and powerlifters. These folks will follow a diet based on their hierarchy of values. And that is fine and perfect, but as a CST athlete and instructor, I must stress the importance of really examining your belief system behind a diet and help you to understand how similar or different it is from our CST’S Value Hierarchy. I honor your process, but can you see the difference? If your current diet has not improve your health first, then your mobility, then your function, then attritubes, and finally your body then maybe your diet does not share the same values as CST? Your diet should share the same belief system of your health and fitness model. I do not care to argue the effectiveness of any diets (this is like arguing what fighting style is the best), but examine the underlining mental belief system behind it.

[Adam Steer]

Hi Bao,

I have to disagree with you on JBs value hierarchy. Obviously, he is a specialist and works primarily with athletes. However, he consistently places health as the first priority in all of his articles, etc. After that comes body composition, performance, etc...

Here is an extract from his website about the 7 habits, which forms the basis of all his practice. I really do not think that you can construe this as an unhealthy approach...

NB the emphasis (bold) is mine...


The 7 Habits of Highly Effective Nutritional Programs

Here’s my take on it. I call these principles, "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective Nutritional Programs," a shameless and possibly illegal play on Steven Covey’s book, "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People." (Great book, by the way—you should read it sometime.)

These aren’t the newest techniques from the latest cutting-edge plan. Rather, they are simple, time-tested, no nonsense habits that you need to get into when designing a good eating program.

1. Eat every 2-3 hours, no matter what. You should eat between 5-8 meals per day.

2. Eat complete (containing all the essential amino acids), lean protein with each meal.

3. Eat fruits and/or vegetables with each food meal.

4. Ensure that your carbohydrate intake comes from fruits and vegetables. Exception: workout and post-workout drinks and meals.

5. Ensure that 25-35% of your energy intake comes from fat, with your fat intake split equally between saturates (e.g. animal fat), monounsaturates (e.g., olive oil), and polyunsaturates (e.g. flax oil, salmon oil).

6. Drink only non-calorie containing beverages, the best choices being water and green tea.

7. Eat mostly whole foods (except workout and post-workout drinks).
So what about calories, or macronutrient ratios, or any number of other things that I’ve covered in other articles? The short answer is that if you aren’t already practicing the above-mentioned habits, and by practicing them I mean putting them to use over 90% of the time (i.e., no more than 4 meals out of an average 42 meals per week violate any of those rules), everything else is pretty pointless.

Moreover, many people can achieve the health and the body composition they desire using the 7 habits alone. No kidding! In fact, with some of my clients I spend the first few months just supervising their adherence to these 7 rules—an effective but costly way to learn them.

However, that being said. I totally respect that JBs approach does not jive with you... I have discovered that it does not even work all the time for me and I have to modify my nutrition to my life and my activities.

Cheers,
Adam

[Scott Sonnon]

Adam,

Don't mistake a diet which is not "health first" for a diet that is "unhealthy." Those are two different entities.

I just asked on your other thread the following:


Obviously, the goal of nutrition is to become healthier, but there are diets focused upon muscle gain and fat loss (physique), some focused on increased strength, endurance or stamina (attributes), and others on the ability to perform at high levels, recovery and repeatedly (function), for example.

I'm curious why you state JB's diet suggestions are "health first". If his suggestions require such high training volume, that's not clicking for me.

The "7 Habits" you list don't necessarily qualify as unhealthy, except on the individual. However, if a person has to eat every 3 hours, 5-8 times per day, and doesn't have a high or intense training volume, that diet WILL become unhealthy regardless of the food choices.

And although the diet could be healthy for a person with high training volume or load, the author of that quote is discussing "body composition" - which is a Physique orientation to diet.

The question is: is JB's dietary suggestions "health FIRST" - not unhealthy. And is it healthy for everyone, then it cannot be. (For example, it would most likely be unhealthy for non-athletes, for sugar sensitive athletes, and for biochemically volatile individuals.) It is called an "Athlete Diet" after all, and many people have personal definitions of athletics.

This isn't an attack, please understand me well. I just do not see a "Health First" approach in the above. And if it's not, that's fine. I'm not saying it is a harmful or ineffective approach at what it does. But I do not buy that it is health FIRST.

[cbeltrante]

The "7 Habits" you list don't necessarily qualify as unhealthy, except on the individual. However, if a person has to eat every 3 hours, 5-8 times per day, and doesn't have a high or intense training volume, that diet WILL become unhealthy regardless of the food choices.

And although the diet could be healthy for a person with high training volume or load, the author of that quote is discussing "body composition" -which is a Physique orientation to diet.


Depending on a person's caloric intake at each meal, 5 - 8 meals a day isn't unhealthy and if it is I'd like to know what research says that eating smaller meals more often throughout the day is unhealthy.

When he talks about Body Composition it's for health reasons. Not just for developing a nice physique.

[Scott Sonnon]

Depending on a person's caloric intake at each meal, 5 - 8 meals a day isn't unhealthy and if it is I'd like to know what research says that eating smaller meals more often throughout the day is unhealthy.

When he talks about Body Composition it's for health reasons. Not just for developing a nice physique.

Chris, did you read where I wrote: "The question is: is JB's dietary suggestions "health FIRST" - not is it unhealthy"? I asked you in the other thread why you believed it was a health FIRST approach. I never implied and clearly stated that just because an approach isn't health FIRST doesn't make it "unhealthy."

Could you please explain how body composition in terms of "health first" rather than for purposes of physique?

[cbeltrante]

Well many studies have been shown to prove that the way a person carries fat on thier body that they are more than likely acquire deblitating disease such as diabetes, heart problems, etc.

You and the Head Coaches informed me of your concern for my health becasue of the weight gain I had when I was at Theta. Doesn't that stress the ideas of Body Composititon for health???

[Scott Sonnon]

Well many studies have been shown to prove that the way a person carries fat on thier body that they are more than likely acquire deblitating disease such as diabetes, heart problems, etc.

You and the Head Coaches informed me of your concern for my health becasue of the weight gain I had when I was at Theta. Doesn't that stress the ideas of Body Composititon for health???

Absolutely there are certain degrees at which muscle loss and fat gain become unhealthy! Are you saying that JB focuses on the ability of people to get out of an unhealthy ratio of muscle and fat, or is the diet focused upon gaining muscle and losing fat arbitrary of (or beyond) attaining a healthy ratio? Do you see the difference?

[cbeltrante]

Just as a follow up to this thread, here is a statement from Phil Caravaggio of Precision Nutrition.



Hi Christopher,

The goal of John's writing, his work with clients, and Precision Nutrition specifically is to acheive three goals simultaneously:

1. Optimal Body Composition (what you called "physique" -- looking good, being lean and muscular, etc)

2. Health (improved blood / hormonal profiles, improved immune response, etc)

3. Performance (adequate energy for sport performance, or even just daily life, etc)

There are ways to achieve each of these separately, in some cases to the detriment of the others. But PN is designed to achieve all three simultaneously. So there isn't much difference between the plans we give to cardiovascular patients and the plans we give to elite athletes, because it's always been our philosophy that the best program must address all three of the above needs to be truly effective over the long term.

Hope that helps answer your question!

Cheers,
Phil
__________________
Phil Caravaggio
Chairman of the Board
Precision Nutrition

** So as you can see Health is one of the 3 simultaneous goals that Dr. John Berardi specifically achieves with his Precision Nutrition. He sees all 3 aspects as being a well rounded part of a nutritonal program.

[Ryan]

Wow, there is a lot of good input here. The responses seem well researched and heart felt in expression. Unfortunately, the tone of the responses is difficult to tell considering that there are no non-verbal cues. I hope that me starting this tread hasn't touched a nerve with anyone...

Nutrition seems a subject that has a lot emotional impact both on those that experience it and those who promote it. Perhaps our emotional responses, when we speak about nutrition, are truly tied to how our biochemistry reacts with our nutritional approach. Very interesting...

Anyway, I want to apologize if anyone has become hurt or angry. For the most part, it seems that this thread is a healthy exchange of ideas, but I just wanted to cover all my bases.

Thanks guys!

[Scotty D.]

Hey folks,

A comment here on using lean meats in transitioning from carbohydrate to fat as one's caloric staple. That lean meats should predominate in a Paleolithic inspired diet is a fallacy, so far as we may look to the actual types of meat that primitive peoples sought out. The lean meat idea comes from a theory, based upon the narrow observation that wild meats are leaner and carry less saturated fats than domesticated/grain-fed meats. However, through their ability to observe nature as a whole thing, primitive peoples were able to seasonally choose those animals with THE MOST FAT, be it because of their age, food availability, and possibly other factors. Here is a quote from an article (http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/nasty_brutish_short.html) at The Weston Price Foundation, which article is the most complete summary of the book "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" that I have come across:


Another myth about primitive diets, and one that is harder to dispel, is that they were low in fat, particularly saturated animal fat. Loren Cordain, PhD, probably the most well known proponent of a return to Paleolithic food habits, recommends a diet consisting of "lean meat, occasional organ meats and wild fruits and vegetables." While this prescription may be politically correct, it does not jibe with descriptions of Paleolithic eating habits, either in cold or hot climates.

Vilhjalmur Stefansson, who spent many years living with the Eskimos and Indians of Northern Canada, reports that wild male ruminants like elk and caribou carry a large slab of back fat, weighing as much as 40 to 50 pounds. The Indians and Eskimo hunted older male animals preferentially because they wanted this backslab fat, as well as the highly saturated fat found around the kidneys. Other groups used blubber from sea mammals like seal and walrus.

"The groups that depend on the blubber animals are the most fortunate in the hunting way of life," wrote Stefansson, "for they never suffer from fat-hunger. This trouble is worst, so far as North America is concerned, among those forest Indians who depend at times on rabbits, the leanest animal in the North, and who develop the extreme fat-hunger known as rabbit-starvation. Rabbit eaters, if they have no fat from another source—beaver, moose, fish—will develop diarrhoea in about a week, with headache, lassitude, a vague discomfort. If there are enough rabbits, the people eat till their stomachs are distended; but no matter how much they eat they feel unsatisfied. Some think a man will die sooner if he eats continually of fat-free meat than if he eats nothing, but this is a belief on which sufficient evidence for a decision has not been gathered in the north. Deaths from rabbit-starvation, or from the eating of other skinny meat, are rare; for everyone understands the principle, and any possible preventive steps are naturally taken."7


Normally, according to Stefansson, the diet consisted of dried or cured meat "eaten with fat," namely the highly saturated cavity and back slab fat that could be easily separated from the animal. Another Arctic explorer, Hugh Brody, reports that Eskimos ate raw liver mixed with small pieces of fat and that strips of dried or smoked meat were "spread with fat or lard."8 Pemmican, a highly concentrated travel food, was a mixture of lean dried buffalo meat and highly saturated buffalo fat. (Buffalo fat, by the way, is more saturated than beef fat.) Less than two pounds of pemmican per day could sustain a man doing hard physical labor. The ratio of fat to protein in pemmican was 80%-20%. As lean meat from game animals was often given to the dogs, there is no reason to suppose that everyday fare did not have the same proportions: 80% fat (mostly highly saturated fat) to 20% protein—in a population in which heart disease and cancer were nonexistent.


I think it quite reasonable that folks will have a desire for grain foods if, when they start removing sugar and carbohydrates, they fail to compensate with adequate amounts of fat fuel.

Some experience from myself... This summer I was living with friends who had a great deal of dried meat available. If I ate a meal or snack of just dried meat, I was both upset in the tummy and craving honey or fruit shortly afterwords. If I ate the dried meat with coconut oil or raw butter(which you may want to note is quite delectable), there was no stomach unsettling and I was energized and without craving. I, as well as a number of the Primal Diet folks, will often eat lots of honey after a meal of raw meat. When I have had meat available with lots of fat though, generally I will eat more fat than meat and there is no desire for sweet afterword.