Spinal Rock Question

[StuMcD]

Hi Guys,

I would really appreciate some tips on my daily practice. I have always had a fairly tight lower back which barely moves at all in the lumbar area when I touch my toes. This causes an annoying break in flow when I am doing spinal rocks which is a pity because I really enjoy the movement. My hips are pretty bound up too and often hurt quite badly when I do the 4CBD and attempt the diagonal leg lift. On a good "hip" day my leg is almost horizontal whilst on a bad day I last only a few seconds before cramping.

Every day for about the last week, I have been popping into the work Gym at lunch time and doing Warrior Wellness as I have been for about the last month and a bit. Between Lunch time practice and doing a second set three days a week in the evening, I have made very good progress on the programme.

Thanks for everything Scott, your approaches to many aspects of physical culture and martial science have changed the way I train.

In the last week, I have added some Bodyflow incorporating switches from a flatfoot squat into a cossack squat to help my hip mobility and lastly some spinal rocks to help with my core strength and efficiency of breath.

It seems that I have some serious ROM issues on both the front and back of my body in this area and I picked these two exercises to try and remedy this. If anyone thinks they have better exercises for this, please let me know. Certainly I can feel the exercises I have chosen working the area pretty hard, especially the squats.

The switches make me cramp up a little but they are getting smoother and I can do more almost every time which is guess is pretty good progress. Unlocking my hips a little has allowed me to make contact with my shoulder during the knee lifting part of WW.

The rocks on the other hand are a bit of a problem. The entire movement is pretty smooth except for the part where my lower back either contacts or leaves the ground. The last 8 inches or so of my spine will only move together and will not bend.

Even when I slow down and try and put each vertebra down separately, this doesn't happen. I contract my abs really hard to try and get my spine to bend and it all just hits the floor with a clunk after much straining to try and make it happen.

Now I realise full well that the best remedy here may be to just keep at it and concentrate on my breathing as I am hoping that my abdominal section just needs to get stronger.

Can anyone suggest anything to help me? I thank you all in advance.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Robert V]

Stu,

Scott is really great at advising in these areas, so I'll leave the bulk of advising to him.

It sounds like you've already had some excellent advice. It appears you are on the right road.

I can only suggest this:

1) remember how long it took you to develop your "fear reactivity" and remember how long you've been trying practicing the relief of that tension. "Incremental Progress"

2) Don't try hard, but "allow". Pain should never be an element of the equation.

3) You might want to try shinbox switch and shin roll for your hips.

4) Don't just look at what you are doing when you are training, but meditate on what you are doing when you are not training(sitting, standing, foot positions, posture...)

5)Lastly, again "don't try, but allow, making every movement effortless!

[StuMcD]

Thanks for the advice Robert,

A good point about incremental progress. I guess the fact that I have made outstanding gains in some areas in a matter of a month and a half is quite likely giving me unrealistic expectations.

The pain factor is difficult to manage. The line between discomfort and pain is sometimes a little blurry, especially when you are concentrating hard on your form. I will definitely keep a closer eye on this as I realise from reading here that pushing through pain when it comes to mobility can simply create new chains of tension.

Will have a go at Shinbox Switch and Shin Roll this weekend whe I have some time to explore tham properly.

Thinking about my posture and the like when just doing day to day things is all very well but you need to know what you should be looking for. Unfortunately, I don't. I do try and stand and sit tall and do spend about half my work day sitting on my fitball rather than a chair.

As for allowing things, I feel as though I need to get my body in shape to allow me to allow.
Thanks again for your help,
Stu.

[Connie Brown]

As for allowing things, I feel as though I need to get my body in shape to allow me to allow.

That's a cute one. You do know you are always and already masterful, right? from the Body-Flow book. I like that idea myself.

On the lower few vertebrae of the back acting as one: seems like you would want to restore the "chain of pearls"-like motion in that before the Body-Flow spinal rocks.

so.. are you on Warrior Wellness Beginner, and what happens with the back thrusts, forward and back? how far down do you go, and is it different if you are slow versus fast, and what is the RPD (discomfort).
what happens when you relax, what happens when you tense.

It almost sounds as if you are tensing your abs so you can push each vertebra down, one at a time. When I would think of it as holding up the string of pearls that is your back, and letting each pearl land on the floor. Of course your abs are still doing the work but they are holding up a string instead of pushing down a, I don't know what, maybe like push-unrolling a tape measure?

[StuMcD]

Hi Connie,

Thanks for the reply. If am truly masterful then I am very much getting in the way of myself.

A chain or pearls sounds nice. My back feels just like the chain only rusted shut and with rough rocks rather than shiny pearls down at the bottom end. According to my training partners, my upper back flexibility is pretty good.

Ok, so spinal rocks aren't a good way to deal with this?

Yes I am on Warrior Wellness beginner and I must say that I approach the thrusts with a little trepidation every time I attempt them.

It's almost like I think I am going to injure myself every time. This is going to sound weird but I have pushed these exercises quite hardto try and prove to my subconcious that they are safe with no ill effect but still get that same worry in the back of my mind every time I attempt them.

Forward thrust (ie leaning backward).

I don't find that using the hands for support as suggested in the WW video makes any difference for me at all. I still do it though because it allows me to maintain a constant shoulder position.

As for how far I go, I guess my chest ends up onb a 45 degree angle or thereabouts done slowly and I get probably 10 degrees lower when I make the movement quickly. I quite often feel a "bunching" of the musculature surrounding the spine and occasionally, it is less of a bunching and more of a pinching on the right side at the upper area of the lumbar section of my back. The RPD would vary between a 5 on a good day and a 7 on a bad day.

If I tense, nothing seems to move all that much in the lumbar area as I push my hips forward. If I relax, sometimes (very occasionally) I am able to glide into the movement but usually I get a hard contraction of my lower back and or glutes which I suppose is a bracing movement.

Going forwards. (ie pushing hips backwards).

As for how far I go down, I usually end up with my elbows in line with my knees when I make this movement in a relaxed fashion. If I try to forcibly tense up whilst doing this then my toes come off the ground pushing all my weight onto my heels and I lose my balance. The RPD is around about a 5.

It might seem like these RPDs are pretty low considering my complaint, but the main factor here is that I can't actually seem to "access" my lower back, even when I push hard to do so. On the two occasions (I don't do this anymore) that I have actually managed to stretch enough to open up my lower back I have had a massive muscle spasm that has had me walking gingerly for a couple of days due to the pain.

It almost sounds as if you are tensing your abs so you can push each vertebra down, one at a time.

When I think about this, this is exactly what I am doing. When I try contracting my abdominal section up or up and back to get your string of pearls effect, the musculature surrounding my spine starts to shake and eventually cramps. It feels almost like the muscles are too short for my back and are keeping it compressed.

As for where this tension came from, I am pretty sure I know. My Mother was anorexic and used to hassle me about my weight constantly whilst also making me finish every scrap of food on my plate. (go figure)

I was constantly told when I was younger to "suck your belly in, you are disgusting yada, yada, yada" and I wouldn't be at all surprised if walking around with my abdominal section contracted is the cause of this problem.

Certainly there are deep emotional issues buried in this problem related to my weight and my worry about it. This latter problem is made worse by the fact that I am hopelessly addicted to sugar and become deeply depressed when I don't have it. I scored 6 on the radiant recovery sugar addiction test.

Thanks for your help Connie. It is most appreciated.
Stu.

[radiantkd]

Hi Stu,

Well, you have some incredible insight going on here!!! The insight will guide you as you do the work. The guys here will provide help with the CST work. I can offer some stuff about the sugar sensitivity and the emotional part.

I suspect you inherited that delightful thing called a sugar sensitive body :-) This makes you compassionate, caring and very sensitive. Not stuff guys are taught to be comfortable with. Sweet stuff makes it possible to *hold* scary and complex feelings, especially things like big mixed messages from moms.

But the thing you think is comforting you, is actually keeping you stuck. Sugar addiction and the imbalance means you go round and round and do not clear. Or it means the feelings come up like a geyser and scare the you know what out of you :-)

If you do some work with the food (and no, I don't mean just go off sugar)...it will balance your body chemistry and allow you to clear all that complexity.

And you are not alone. I promise I know how to do this and can give you the tools to make it work.

Warmly,
Kathleen

[Connie Brown]

Thanks for the reply. If am truly masterful then I am very much getting in the way of myself.

well at least you are masterful at it. :twisted:

Ok, so spinal rocks aren't a good way to deal with this?

well it sure sounds like you have a broken "dimmer switch" on your tension and relaxation in the midsection. From years of training tension on the abs. Spinal rocks are fun but you don't want to reinforce the ab tension while you are releasing SMA or whatever is in your rusty lower back.

It's almost like I think I am going to injure myself every time. This is going to sound weird but I have pushed these exercises quite hardto try and prove to my subconcious that they are safe with no ill effect but still get that same worry in the back of my mind every time I attempt them.

Perfect description of fear-reactivity. You can address it in tiny slices exploring the movement.

If I relax, sometimes (very occasionally) I am able to glide into the movement but usually I get a hard contraction of my lower back and or glutes which I suppose is a bracing movement.

In your place I would explore how much you can relax without bracing.

It might seem like these RPDs are pretty low considering my complaint, but the main factor here is that I can't actually seem to "access" my lower back, even when I push hard to do so.

Can you access it without pushing?

As for where this tension came from, I am pretty sure I know. My Mother was anorexic and used to hassle me about my weight constantly whilst also making me finish every scrap of food on my plate. (go figure)

I was constantly told when I was younger to "suck your belly in, you are disgusting yada, yada, yada" and I wouldn't be at all surprised if walking around with my abdominal section contracted is the cause of this problem.

Bingo. Good for you. I hope you give yourself space to let your mind and body process this. It is big!

Certainly there are deep emotional issues buried in this problem related to my weight and my worry about it. This latter problem is made worse by the fact that I am hopelessly addicted to sugar and become deeply depressed when I don't have it. I scored 6 on the Radiant Recovery® sugar addiction test.

Well the good and bad news is, it is NOT just emotional. It is also physical.

Physical as in the stored muscular tension (RMT and SMA). Luckily CST can resolve much of this.

Also physical in the biochemistry of sugar sensitivity. As a sugar sensitive child, getting messages like that literally makes the chemistry worse. (I had to go out in the backyard and scream at the very idea of that little boy sucking it in. I am back now)

Also luckily, doing the RR food plan will probably have you feeling better than you have ever experienced in your entire life - because you have probably not accidentally lucked on proper diet for this body.

Just a data point for you. You mentioned your mom being anorexic. In our working theory over at RR, anorexics have unusually high serotonin (ability to stick to things) and unusually low beta-endorphin - desparately seeking self-esteem. If you share that profile with your mom NO WONDER you are able to train tension so well. This is a good thing because you will also be able to train new ways very well too.

You are doing awesome. I am proud to be here where people are not afraid to talk real about what IS real.

[Chuck Kechter]

Great insight Stu!

I have a possible aside practice for your lumbar region. This is not to be done instead of WW, but as an adjunct. And please keep in mind I'm not a CST coach, but a practitioner, so the coaches may come in and countermand this at any time. :wink:

There are four components to this aside practice.

1. Spinal arches (or twisting spinal arches if you're able). From BF.

2. The plow: use incremental progression in positioning.

3. On an exercise ball: Play with supine and prone positions holding each on the ball for 30+ seconds per position. "Stretch" your spine out along the surface of the ball, rolling along the surface gently elongating the space between the vertebra. Watch your RPE, RT and RPD on these. Don't go too far into discomfort at a time (more incremental progression).

2. Are you familiar with the talbe postion in yoga? (Hope so. . . :wink: ) From there perform a cat tilt pose, then a dog tilt pose. In the begining hold each postition for a number of seconds. Once your RPE goes down to a 5 or lower (with the increase of RT as well), begin to wave them. Start (slowly) one way, perform a number of "reps," then reverse directions.

With all of these: "don't" tense anything, force anything, just try to relax into them. Breathe into them, if you know what I mean. . .

My brother has had disc fusion surgery in the past, and has broken his back (unrelated to the first) and these are what I shared with him to help with his back inflexibility and pain. And while he still has a long way to go they seem to be helping greatly.

Hope they work for you too.

All the best.

V/R,

Chuck

[JasonE]

Geezz, Chuck! - I was about to type the exact same recommendations, albeit worded a little differently. We must be great minds, 'cause we sure are thinking alike! :wink:

Stu - I know what you mean by the abdominal bracing and constant sucking-in of the gut. I've done it off and on for years, and have mostly conquered it over the last 7 months. Sounds like you've been more consistent with it for a longer time, so it may take you longer to overcome. Patience and incremental progress will get you there, never fear. Water dripping on a rock will always make a hole eventually.

The only suggestion I will add is to consciously let your gut "hang out", not just when doing your mobility exercises, but all the time. It's a part of you, so be friends with it. Besides, sucking it in doesn't really fool anybody, and having a belly makes you more huggable (so says my G/F!).

[Dan Chomycia]

Stuart,

Connie, Robert, and Kathleen are right.

I'm going to go through a some of your post to highlight what you should understand then at the end I will give you some things to work on specifically.

The line between discomfort and pain is sometimes a little blurry, especially when you are concentrating hard on your form.
I contract my abs really hard to try and get my spine to bend and it all just hits the floor

Within all of CST, applying extra tension to fight through or make an exercise happen is the WRONG way to do things. You must work to only apply the tension needed to accomplish the task. You must relax through the movements as much as possible.

Now I realise full well that the best remedy here may be to just keep at it and concentrate on my breathing

Add relaxation to that breathing and you've got the general idea you need.

the fact that I have made outstanding gains in some areas in a matter of a month and a half is quite likely giving me unrealistic expectations

These fast gains are normal with CST, until you find out what your unique problems are. The problem areas will take a little longer but they also will help to make future gains easier. Remember it has only been a Month a half!
You have time to heal.

Yes I am on Warrior Wellness™ beginner and I must say that I approach the thrusts with a little trepidation every time I attempt them.
It's almost like I think I am going to injure myself every time. This is going to sound weird but I have pushed these exercises quite hardto try and prove to my subconcious that they are safe with no ill effect but still get that same worry in the back of my mind every time I attempt them.

This is as clear as day your fear reactivity, I had some as well in this range when I first started. Instead of trying harder you should be relaxing more. Now on to the specifics.

• Here are some specific things you can do to help deal with this problem area.
  1. Dis-continue doing the Spinal-Rocks for now your not really ready for them.
  
  2. Focus mainly on your Warrior Wellness moving slowly and without trying hard to accomplish a Range of Motion. The less tension you use the better.
  
  3. Do your hip movements and chest movements before doing your problem area in your lower spine.
  
  4. When you are at the spinal thrusts I want you to move extra slow as you descend toward the floor.
  When you start to feel the pain at about a 5,
  rise up slightly so that the pain is less intense(2 or 3),
  then from there, sway gently left and right 5 times.
  Do this for both the forward and backward thrusts.
  
  5. Continue your Warrior Wellness session slowly and relaxed.

Try this for a week and let me know your results.

Talk to you soon!